Why did Christ have to die?

[Pryority7]

malachi_a_serva:

The answer to this question is what keeps me a “Christian” and has not allowed me to come back to the Catholic faith. When one truly understands just why Jesus came to earth, and why he had to die…very eye opening.

God is Holy and Just. The Just part of him needs atonement for sin. Under Jewish law a sacrifice need be made for the covering of sin. It only “covered” sins. Jesus came to earth with one main thing to do. To die as an “atonement” for our sins. See sacrificing you best lamb and following the law…never brought salvation. That was not the intent, cause no one could keep the law.

Jesus became the “sacrificial lamb”. Behold the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. This is where non-Catholic beliefs differ. A non-Catholic sees Jesus sacrifice as atonement for anyone’s sin’s that accepts that sacrifice. By accepting it, Jesus becomes their savior.

This is where I see it as making perfect sense. Because if one need follow this rule or that rule and this sacrament or that sacrament, Jesus bloody, torturous death becomes illogical. Exactly, why would he have to come down and die such a horrible death if people still needed to do this that or the other thing? It makes no sense. But as he said before he gave up the Ghost, “It is finished” - this referring to the purpose he came, …to be the sacrificial lamb for the world, for anyone who would accept it. Without bloodshed, there is no remission of sin. That is why Jesus’ blood needed to be shed.

It makes total sense to me.

Malachi, what you call “do this that or the other thing” and “this rule or that rule or this sacrament or that sacrament” is what we Catholics call responding to God in love. The sacraments are a living sign of God’s presence here on earth, and our response to “this, that or the other thing” is the Holy Spirit moving us to be closer to Jesus. Thus our actions not just as Catholics, but as Christians in general (sacraments, works of love and caring for others, etc) is simply a natural response to the Holy Spirit entering us at the moment of salvation to WANT to please God, not “do this that or the other thing” because we feel we have to add to the once and for all sacrifice on the Cross. Jesus’ blood was shed to redeem the human race. He destroyed the power of sin, death and Satan forever. The sacraments are merely our means of being reminded of those facts, and our “doing this that and the other thing” are merely our response born from desire, not legalism, as you so seem to accuse the Catholic Church of endorsing.
You’re on the right track dude, but your view of us Catholics having a “salvation by works” wayof living is quite warped.
P7

 

[Anonymous_1]

Saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone…

It is so clear in scripture. “If you love me, you will keep My commandments.”

 

[StCsDavid]

mikew262:

If he died to to show that he could rise again to prove without a doubt he was God, I can buy into that.

If that was the case, then it didn’t work. Billions still do not believe.

mikew262:

However, the fact that he died, so our sins could be forgiven, I have a problem understanding. He was God, why couldn’t he just proclaim it, without having to die. What did him dying, prove?

He could have just proclaimed it, but He didn’t. He could have zapped Adam and Eve out of existence when they fell and started over with someone else, but He didn’t. Why? God only knows. Why don’t you ask Him?

God is love. He so loved the world that He sent His only son. His son’s death…destoryed death. We have hope of eternal life because Christ gave the example of how to give love. Christ’s example of total self-donation is the road map we need to salvation. Yet even more important…Christ took our sins to His death with Him. Everytime you sin, you make his bearing the cross a little heavier, but his response to you is “I forgive you…what else can I carry for you?” Each time you sin, you take your turn swinging the hammer that drives the nail into His flesh. His response is, “This is my body, I give it up for you, Mike.” It’s that personal.

God didn’t have to do anything. You exist for the simple reason that God thought you up; willed you; made you necessary; loved you. Can you think of a greater way of showing you His love other than sacrificing His only son?

Today’s first reading( Gn 22:1-2, 9a, 10-13, 15-18 ) at mass was the story of how Abraham was willing to sacrifice His own son for the love of God. Look what happens in this story. Yes it is about obedience, but notice there’s also an intercession going on here. God intercedes for Issac, too. He knows how much Abraham loved his only son. That is love.

mikew262:

Why didn’t he stay on earth longer to continue his ministry?

He was able to accomplish the salvation of man in a few short years. Staying longer would have just been showing off. I don’t know why He didn’t stay longer. You should ask Him that, too. My guess is that His work was simply done. He’s given us everything we need to be with Him…now it’s up to us to say “yes” or “no.” Free will.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Pryority7:

MikeW, let me try to break this down to you…

God created us originally perfect and without sin. We chose to turn from Him and sinned. Whether you believe in the Adam and Eve story literally is another discussion in and of itself, but the point is that once there was a perfect state that humans were in. We were sharing in the supernatural life of God! That’s what we call “Grace”.
The warning God gave us was clear, if we eat from the fruit of the forbidden tree, we will die. And died we did. Our first parents sinned and that Original sin has been transmitted to us. Death entered the world through sin. Sin gives birth to death. The penalty of sin is death, not just physically, but spiritually. Spiritual death is eternal separation from God, that is, Hell.
But God loved us so much that He decided to become a human being Himself, and He, that is, Jesus Christ, not having sin inside him at all, made Himself the appropriate sacrifice to take onto Himselff all the sins of the world…you sins…my sins…everything…even our sufferings from sin. This is what the Cross signifies. God doesn’t want us to go to Hell, He wants us to be restored to the original state He created us as. The death of a substitute was by His Law and Justice in regards to sin the only way this redemption could take place. This was of course foreshadowed in the sacrifices of lambs and goats in the Jewish Temple (read Hebrews). Death is the punishment for sin, and God chose to take on that punishment upon Himself so that we would not have to. Now that is Love as far as Love would ever go. Christ didn’t HAVE to die for our sins. Christ CHOSE to die, but death was the natural consequence of sin. Sin kills everything. God restores everything. And one day everything will be fully restored (Revelation 21), but we can experience that now if we just give ourselves to Him, both personally and through the sacraments.
Does this help?
P7

Hi there, OK, I know for myself - and from a non-Catholic point of view why Jesus died.

I still do not see how the Catholic Church reconciles Jesus death with salvation. For example, lets say you have Mother Tereasa (I will use her as an example)…a person that lived as the church would want, followed all the teachings of the church, received the sacraments etc…what did Jesus’ sacrifice do for her?

What I am trying to say, is from a JW point of view, they see Jesus sacrifice as sort of wipping the slate clean. Removing Adam’s original sin debt from us, so that now we can go and tally up our own merits/consequences. Is this like the Catholic Church believes?

 

[Pryority7]

malachi_a_serva:

Hi there, OK, I know for myself - and from a non-Catholic point of view why Jesus died.

I still do not see how the Catholic Church reconciles Jesus death with salvation. For example, lets say you have Mother Tereasa (I will use her as an example)…a person that lived as the church would want, followed all the teachings of the church, received the sacraments etc…what did Jesus’ sacrifice do for her?

What I am trying to say, is from a JW point of view, they see Jesus sacrifice as sort of wipping the slate clean. Removing Adam’s original sin debt from us, so that now we can go and tally up our own merits/consequences. Is this like the Catholic Church believes?

To answer your first question regarding Mother Teresa…
The reason why she lived the kind of life she lived was BECAUSE of the sacrifice of Jesus. It was His sacrifice on the Cross that produces saintly people like her, and people like her cannot be able to follow the teachings of the church and live a holy life without the spirit of Christ…the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, given through grace, is what enables the believer to live like a Mother Teresa, or John Paul the II, or others throughout history. There are people who claim as “catholic” for their title but do not live like it. They think that it is enough to follow “church teachings” and recieve the sacraments here and there to be saved. If God’s spirit does not live in you, then these things mean nothing and will do nothing for you.
However, the sacraments, being one way of God distributing His grace to us, are so powerful, especially the Eurcharist, there is no way that someone could be so devout and not let it effect their heart. You’re suggesting a system of salvation by works. What is taught is that God’s Grace, it being a gift of course, not earned is what naturally drives us to do works of love. The two go hand in hand, they do not oppose each other. That’s how Christs’ sacrifice is applied to the life of a person like Mother Teresa, and Thank God, we have a role model like her to look to as an example.

Now the JW question:
Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross not only undo Adam’s sin (Original Sin), but ALL sin. Our individual sins. This is not realized in our present state because we still struggle with sin. We need to depend on God daily to help us put it to death…Die to ourselves…so to speak. Like Jesus said. This is done in Baptism, whether as an infant or an adult and it is maintain through the other sacraments and in our loving response to Him in acts of love and kindness towards others (those works that non-catholic christians seem to dread) However, tallying up our own merits is NOT Catholic teaching. It’s not about scoring brownie points to get into Heaven. It’s about allowing God’s grace and Spirit to live out the Christian life in you and through you so that “your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father” (Matthew 5:16)

Peace,
P7

 

[Beaver]

Simple answer is that the Old Covenant was broken.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Pryority7:

To answer your first question regarding Mother Teresa…
The reason why she lived the kind of life she lived was BECAUSE of the sacrifice of Jesus. It was His sacrifice on the Cross that produces saintly people like her, and people like her cannot be able to follow the teachings of the church and live a holy life without the spirit of Christ…the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, given through grace, is what enables the believer to live like a Mother Teresa, or John Paul the II, or others throughout history.

But Jesus and God the Father could have sent the Holty Spirt down to earth without Jesus having to die.

I guess where I am coming from is from a non-Catholic point of view, we accept Jesus sacrifice as atonement for oue sins. That once we accept him, his sacrifice as a substitution for the Wrath God will distribute to the unaccepting, we are freed from God’s just wrath. This would be the “born again” moment. When we realize we are/our heart is filthy dirty, need to repent and turn away from our sins…(Not trying to preach here, just explain).
and accept Jesus sacrifice, then we have him as our “LORD”. a.k.a. our “boss” and do what he commands us to do…evidence of the fruit of salvation.

This is where I really do not understand or see the Catholkic position. When I read the bible I read about Salvation through Jesus Christ. His blood. His sacrifice. I do not find salvation through obidience to the church etc… Now, I am not trying to turn this towards a debate on salvation, but Just the Catholic explanation on what EXACTLY Jesus Death did or was for.

I see it as:

All sin required a blood sacrifice. Without the sheeding of blood, no remission of sin. Old Testament sacrifices could only “cover” our sins. Jesus being “perfect” was a “perfect” sacrifice, that “took away the sins of the world”. He needed to shed his blood to appease a just and Holy God The Father.

He did, now anyone who accepts Jesus as his savior…is thus saved.

Now, I guess I need a clearer explanation on what EXACTLY Jesus’ death did or was for. And then how that was needed/required as “part” of ones salvation where “all the other things that are needed” would not do or suffice without Jesus’ sacrifice.

Fopr example, I volunteer in a Inner City Church that feeds and clothes homeless people. The “church” is ecumenical and the people in my fundamental circle would say (niot that they have buit I am sure they would) that this should be avoided given the ecumenicalness and lack of true doctrine (not trying to debate what is true and what is not…just provide an example). One of the “Pastors” in this church (which is Baptist by association - hence this example is a good example of why fundamentals remain “independant”)…one of the Pastors believed that if Jesus did not die on the cross as he did…people would still go/get to Heaven. If this is not a good example of what ecumenicalism does (associatio by the lowest common denominatore i.e. feed the homeless)…does than I do not know what is. If Jesus did not die on the cross…people still would go to Heaven. Man we need help. That wouldn’t pass for a “Christian Doctrine” anywwhere. But my example is/shopws the universalism…GOD is merciful, etc… Most people think they are going to Heaven. That alone is an example opf something uis wrong. God is Holy and Just as well as love and Merciful. But just think, God the Father is so Just that his only Begotten Son HAD to be given as an atonement…to make ammends - for our sins…cause atonement/ammends had to be made. God the Father could not just forget them…of course not…Justice needs to be carried out. Anyway, hopefully I did not get to far off tiopic.

Again I look forward to hearing the Catholic explanation on what EXACTLY Jesus Death did or was for.

And the whole “example” thing just doesn’t resinate with me. Example of the life he lead…yes. Why he had to die and shed his blood, ? not sure “example” is the answer.

Sorry for all the spelling mistakes. I guess eveyone will know this is not a “cut and paste”…making fun of myself from my first postings…

 

[Digger71]

Anonymous_1:

. See, God is the source of everything that is good and perfect. Love and mercy are good right? Well so is Justice.

You missed the point. He could have just willed it to be so. If he was constrained by Justice, or any set of rules he isnt god.

 

[Pryority7]

malachi_a_serva:

But Jesus and God the Father could have sent the Holty Spirt down to earth without Jesus having to die.

I guess where I am coming from is from a non-Catholic point of view, we accept Jesus sacrifice as atonement for oue sins. That once we accept him, his sacrifice as a substitution for the Wrath God will distribute to the unaccepting, we are freed from God’s just wrath. This would be the “born again” moment. When we realize we are/our heart is filthy dirty, need to repent and turn away from our sins…(Not trying to preach here, just explain).
and accept Jesus sacrifice, then we have him as our “LORD”. a.k.a. our “boss” and do what he commands us to do…evidence of the fruit of salvation.

Malachi, believe it or not, this is almost as close to the Catholic position as you can get without being Catholic. The only thing about that is that you approach it from a judiciary standpoint. We believe in a loving Father, not a lawyer. The holes here are:
1.It gives people the sense that you can sin your head off without worrying about your salvation and
2.It dangerously introduces a fatalistic, lazy attitude towards living for God. If I’m saved already, why bother doing anything about it?
Yes, our hearts are filthy. This is why we need to repent, but repentence and accepting Jesus as Lord can happen at the same time, but repentance is an ongoing thing. We will always fall on our face in some sin, and when we turn to God in repentence (like say the sacrament of penance), the shed blood on the Cross is applied to us due to our accepting it in the sacrament. It’s really the same thing Malachi.

This is where I really do not understand or see the Catholkic position. When I read the bible I read about Salvation through Jesus Christ. His blood. His sacrifice. I do not find salvation through obidience to the church etc… Now, I am not trying to turn this towards a debate on salvation, but Just the Catholic explanation on what EXACTLY Jesus Death did or was for.

It is through the Church that Jesus’ sacrifice with His blood has been made known. How to accept that and apply it to our lives is what you’re calling “obedience” to the church. The Church is the Body of Christ. So therefore, we are in obedience to Christ, not the outward buildings or organization, even though these things are important and useful in revealing the sacrifice of Christ…at least that two ways of revealing that. The Sacraments are the real substantial roots, as well as the Word of God.
I see it as:

All sin required a blood sacrifice. Without the sheeding of blood, no remission of sin. Old Testament sacrifices could only “cover” our sins. Jesus being “perfect” was a “perfect” sacrifice, that “took away the sins of the world”. He needed to shed his blood to appease a just and Holy God The Father.

Amen. I agree. the Catholic Church agrees with you too.

He did, now anyone who accepts Jesus as his savior…is thus saved.

Right, and is being saved (sanctification) and will be saved at death or the Second Coming. Salvation is a process, not a one shot deal.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Pryority7:

It dangerously introduces a fatalistic, lazy attitude towards living for God. If I’m saved already, why bother doing anything about it?
Yes, our hearts are filthy. This is why we need to repent, but repentence and accepting Jesus as Lord can happen at the same time, but repentance is an ongoing thing. We will always fall on our face in some sin, and when we turn to God in repentence (like say the sacrament of penance), the shed blood on the Cross is applied to us due to our accepting it in the sacrament.

I read this last night and it rang true again, “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him” Romans 5:9

Yes I agree we need to continually repent. However in the way I see/believe in the rebirth - the Holy Spirit comes in an dwells within oneself…could someone continue to do what he/she was doing now with the Holy Spirit living in him/her. I don’t think so. So before the HS came in, we were “practicing” sin…after…, we occassionally “fall” or “stumble” into sin…and yes we need to repent. But not for or too keep our salvation, but to not have rewards takin away/crowns, that we cast at the feet of Jesus. As well as because we love God the Father and God the son and wantto please him, be obediant to him. Anyway, getting off topic.

Again I read Romans 5:9 and read Jesus’ sacrifice saved me from the wrath I was due. Romans 5:10, “For it, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.” (v 11)

Somehow, if I left it up to my works, my power, I am hopelessly lost. That is why Jesus’ sacrifice is the only way to be saved.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Pryority7:

Right, and is being saved (sanctification) and will be saved at death or the Second Coming. Salvation is a process, not a one shot deal.

I hear you and understand your position. I see salvation as a one moment acceptance. Proof of that will be in my fruit. Sanctification I see as a process to become more and more “Christ like”.

Thank you for you comments and insights, I appreciated them.

 

[Pryority7]

You’re welcome. God bless.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Pryority7:

Malachi, believe it or not, this is almost as close to the Catholic position as you can get without being Catholic.

This makes me happy

 

[Matt16_18]

mikew262:

So if Jesus had never come down and/or died on the cross, mankind’s sins could never be forgiven by God?

That is correct. “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins”
Heb 9:22

 

[BlestOne]

Wow these posts are very good! Pryority, you did a very good job on that post that you addressed to Mike. Malachai, I hope you see how close you are to the truth…keep going! There is just one more thought I would like to add…Death, being sin was Satan’s ultimate obstacle to overcome. Christ Jesus knew this and thus crushed Satan’s hold on us by accepting death and then resurrecting and establishing eternal life…Imagine Satan laughing at the beginning of all this…hey Jesus, you are gonna accept my punishment for sin…you are going to be dead dude…so after the crucifixion when Jesus came back…ohhh mannnn what have you done? He screwed up Satan’s plan for death to be the ultimate punishment the ultimate end…now death is the beginning, the beginning of our eternal lives. This is why Jesus had to die, it is the fulfilment of Gen 3 14-15
14 And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. 15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

*15 “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head. *

There is a direct lineage from Adam and Eve all the way through history, Abraham, Noah, …,David, Solomon, … all the way to Jesus… who ended up crushing death for us for all time.
Now, yes this means that we are all offered salvation through Jesus, although because accepting that salvation is not a one time deal because of our human nature to sin, we are being saved as we come to accept our Lord’s sacrifice and make ourselves more and more in his image. This is why Catholics say that they are saved, they are being saved and they work toward salvation.

Salvation is linked to sanctification this way…