Why do Atheists/Agnostics come to CAF?

[itinerant1]

I have met some nice polite (and some not so nice and/or polite) Atheists/Agnostics here at CAF, yet I’m still somewhat befuddled by your presence, for example, I don’t know why you seek to argue with us if you don’t have proof that God doesn’t exist and furthermore that Christianity is false?

Good question! I thought it would be helpful to understand a little about atheism and agnosticism. To do this I will defer from the usual method of pronouncing on the topic and provide, instead, an extended list of quotations from various authors on the subject, to be referred back to and used for reflection and further discussion.

ATHEISM

“Pity atheists who seek; are they not pitiable? Inveigh only against those who make a boast of it.” ~Pascal: Pensees.

“Atheism is a sign of mental strength, but only up to a certain point.”
~Pascal: Pensees.

“There are but two ways, the way to Rome, and the way to atheism.” ~Cardinal Newman: Apologia Pro Vita Sua.

Who seeks perfection in the art
Of driving well a [horse] and cart,
Or painting mountains in the mist,
Seeks God although an atheist.
~Francis Carlin: Perfection.

" ‘The people must have a religion’ ; this [bourgeois] formula expressed in an exact though inverted form the same conception as the phrase of Marx that religion is the opiate of the people. Atheist communism is only bourgeois deism turned the other way round."
~Jacques Maritain: Freedom in the Modern World.

“It is significant that freedom of speech and action has never been more ruthlessly suppressed than in the one great European country which has officially adopted atheism as the religion of the state.” ~Arnold Lunn: Now I See.

“There are two kinds of atheists; those who think they are atheists, and those who are atheists.” ~Jacques Maritain: The Range of Reason.

“Absolute atheism starts in an act of faith in reverse gear and is a full-blown religious commitment. Here we have the first inconsistency of contemporary atheism: it proclaims that all religion must necessarily vanish away, and it is itself a religious phenomenon.”
~Jacques Maritain: The Range of ReasonPeace of Soul.

“The exile of God means the tyrannization of man.” ~Bishop Sheen: Life is Worth Living.

AGNOSTICISM

“Do they really think that they have given me cause for rejoicing when they say that they consider that our soul is nothing but a little wind and smoke? Why should they say this in a tone of voice proud and content? Is it really a thing to say with such pride?”
~Pascal: Pensees.

“I do not see much difference between avowing that there is no God, and implying that nothing definite can for certain be known about Him.”
~Cardinal Newman: Historical Sketches, 3.

“Agnosticism solves not, but merely shelves the mysteries of life. When agnosticism had done its withering work in the mind of man, the mysteries remain as before; all that has been added to them is a settled despair.” ~Vincent McNabb: Thoughts Twice-dyed.

“Agnosticism leads inevitably to moral indifference. It denies us all power to esteem or to understand moral values, because it severs our spiritual contact with God Who alone is the source of all morality and Who alone can punish the violation of moral laws with a sanction worthy of our attention.” ~Thomas Merton: The Ascent to Truth.

FAITH

“Faith is a gift which can be given or withdrawn; it is something infused into us, not produced by us.” ~R.H. Benson: A Mirror of Shalott.

“Faith is the door through which we enter the supernatural order. It opens into heaven. It tells us: We have not here a lasting city, but we seek one that is to come (Hebr. 13, 14).” ~Abbott Chapman: Spiritual Letters.

“Ultimately faith is the only key to the universe. The final meaning of human existence, and the answers to the questions on which all our happiness depends cannot be found in any other way.” ~Thomas Merton: Seeds of Contemplation

 

[Agripa]

Good question! I thought it would be helpful to understand a little about atheism and agnosticism. To do this I will defer from the usual method of pronouncing on the topic and provide, instead, an extended list of quotations from various authors on the subject, to be referred back to and used for reflection and further discussion.

ATHEISM

“Pity atheists who seek; are they not pitiable? Inveigh only against those who make a boast of it.” ~Pascal: Pensees.

“Atheism is a sign of mental strength, but only up to a certain point.”
~Pascal: Pensees.

“There are but two ways, the way to Rome, and the way to atheism.” ~Cardinal Newman: Apologia Pro Vita Sua.

Well, it would perhaps be helpful if in those lovely quotes from pro Catholic writers, you included some more objective quotes by other authors as well, at least for a more balanced view!

Who seeks perfection in the art
Of driving well a [horse] and cart,
Or painting mountains in the mist,
Seeks God although an atheist.
~Francis Carlin: Perfection.

" ‘The people must have a religion’ ; this [bourgeois] formula expressed in an exact though inverted form the same conception as the phrase of Marx that religion is the opiate of the people. Atheist communism is only bourgeois deism turned the other way round."
~Jacques Maritain: Freedom in the Modern World.

“It is significant that freedom of speech and action has never been more ruthlessly suppressed than in the one great European country which has officially adopted atheism as the religion of the state.” ~Arnold Lunn: Now I See.

“There are two kinds of atheists; those who think they are atheists, and those who are atheists.” ~Jacques Maritain: The Range of Reason.

“Absolute atheism starts in an act of faith in reverse gear and is a full-blown religious commitment. Here we have the first inconsistency of contemporary atheism: it proclaims that all religion must necessarily vanish away, and it is itself a religious phenomenon.”
~Jacques Maritain: The Range of ReasonPeace of Soul

.

“The exile of God means the tyrannization of man.” ~Bishop Sheen: Life is Worth Living.

AGNOSTICISM

“Do they really think that they have given me cause for rejoicing when they say that they consider that our soul is nothing but a little wind and smoke? Why should they say this in a tone of voice proud and content? Is it really a thing to say with such pride?”
~Pascal: Pensees.

“I do not see much difference between avowing that there is no God, and implying that nothing definite can for certain be known about Him.”
~Cardinal Newman: Historical Sketches, 3.

“Agnosticism solves not, but merely shelves the mysteries of life. When agnosticism had done its withering work in the mind of man, the mysteries remain as before; all that has been added to them is a settled despair.” ~Vincent McNabb: Thoughts Twice-dyed.

“Agnosticism leads inevitably to moral indifference. It denies us all power to esteem or to understand moral values, because it severs our spiritual contact with God Who alone is the source of all morality and Who alone can punish the violation of moral laws with a sanction worthy of our attention.” ~Thomas Merton: The Ascent to Truth.

FAITH

“Faith is a gift which can be given or withdrawn; it is something infused into us, not produced by us.” ~R.H. Benson: A Mirror of Shalott.

“Faith is the door through which we enter the supernatural order. It opens into heaven. It tells us: We have not here a lasting city, but we seek one that is to come (Hebr. 13, 14).” ~Abbott Chapman: Spiritual Letters.

“Ultimately faith is the only key to the universe. The final meaning of human existence, and the answers to the questions on which all our happiness depends cannot be found in any other way.” ~Thomas Merton: Seeds of Contemplation

 

[Agripa]

Factoid # 2:

Truth has never been popular. Socrates was made to drink hemlock. The prophets were stoned. St. Isaac Jogues was tortured and killed by the Mohawks. Hitler tried to exterminate the historical witness for the Gospel of Christ—the Jewish people. St. Maximilian Kolbe was injected with carbolic acid. Truth is even less popular in modern secularist cultures.

QUOTE]

I agree with your sentiment, and we can debate what is “truth”, however, I take strong exception to your assertion that the Jews were or are the historical witness for the Gospel of Christ. They are not and I feel the Jewish people would protest this linkage.

Frankly, many of us are tired of seeing christians and Catholics making clumsey attempts to either convert Jews, link Jews to a christian view of salvation or Armageddon, or stumble all over themselves when confronted with the fact that their own founder, Jesus, was a Jewish rabbi.

 

[yankee_doodle]

… the degree of ignorance and bigotry is far worse than I ever imagined?

 

[gearhead]

Good question! I thought it would be helpful to understand a little about atheism and agnosticism. To do this I will defer from the usual method of pronouncing on the topic and provide, instead, an extended list of quotations from various authors on the subject, to be referred back to and used for reflection and further discussion.

Hmm. Your quotes have nothing to do with understanding and everything to do with promoting a particular set of false and harmful views.

 

[josie_L]

I agree with your sentiment, and we can debate what is “truth”, however, I take strong exception to your assertion that the Jews were or are the historical witness for the Gospel of Christ. They are not and I feel the Jewish people would protest this linkage.

Frankly, many of us are tired of seeing christians and Catholics making clumsey attempts to either convert Jews, link Jews to a christian view of salvation or Armageddon, or stumble all over themselves when confronted with the fact that their own founder, Jesus, was a Jewish rabbi.

And I take strong exception to your assertion that they were not, Jesus Christ was the long awaited Messiah and the Jews who recognized this became his followers and established his Church, it’s not that hard to understand really.

 

[itinerant1]

itinerant1;5740679:

Factoid # 2:

Truth has never been popular. Socrates was made to drink hemlock. The prophets were stoned. St. Isaac Jogues was tortured and killed by the Mohawks. Hitler tried to exterminate the historical witness for the Gospel of Christ—the Jewish people. St. Maximilian Kolbe was injected with carbolic acid. Truth is even less popular in modern secularist cultures.

QUOTE]

I agree with your sentiment, and we can debate what is “truth”, however, I take strong exception to your assertion that the Jews were or are the historical witness for the Gospel of Christ. They are not and I feel the Jewish people would protest this linkage.

Frankly, many of us are tired of seeing christians and Catholics making clumsey attempts to either convert Jews, link Jews to a christian view of salvation or Armageddon, or stumble all over themselves when confronted with the fact that their own founder, Jesus, was a Jewish rabbi.

I am willing to discuss “truth” at the drop of a hat. As far as your “strong exception to [my] assertion that the Jews were or are the historical witness for the Gospel of Christ” you reveal your anti-Christian bias and your lack of objective historical perspective. The observation about the Jews being a historical witness for the Gospel was made by a Jew reflecting on the Holocaust. He believed that since Hitler could not strike Christ himself, he turned against the Jews as a proxy and visible representative of the people from whence Christ came.

My second point about history, which you miss altogether, is merely the undeniable fact that Christ came from the Jews; and that the continuation of the Jewish race, remains living, visible proof that Judaism is a unique religion that originated among a race of primitive Hebrews who followed the one, true, God whose name is “I Am Who Am”, which entails that Yahweh is the ground of all being and truth.

As far as your assertion that Christians “stumble all over themselves when confronted with the fact that their own founder, Jesus, was a Jewish rabbi”, I have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps you can give some examples that we can check out. Otherwise, it doesn’t sound like anything I am familiar with that accurately characterizes the Christian attitude. Most likely, its just something you have imagined, but I will leave it up to you to provide some evidence for your claim.

 

[itinerant1]

Hmm. Your quotes have nothing to do with understanding and everything to do with promoting a particular set of false and harmful views.

And just what evidence will you provide to support your statement, so that I can be assured you are not just just espousing a narrow-minded, uninformed opinion for which there is no basis in fact?

 

[gearhead]

And I take strong exception to your assertion that they were not, Jesus Christ was the long awaited Messiah and the Jews who recognized this became his followers and established his Church, it’s not that hard to understand really.

AFAIK, the early Church had much more success with gentile Greeks than it did with Jews, no?

And just what evidence will you provide to support your statement, so that I can be assured you are not just just espousing a narrow-minded, uninformed opinion for which there is no basis in fact?

Excuse me? If you’re going to make claims about atheists and agnostics, it’s up to you to back them up.

 

[josie_L]

AFAIK, the early Church had much more success with gentile Greeks than it did with Jews, no?

He preached to the Jews first (as Jesus was the long awaited Messiah written of in judaic Scripture) and so they were the first converts to Christianity, and of those Jews, the apostles (and the prophets of old) became the very foundation for the fledgling Christian Church (Ephesians 2:20), i.e., they were historical witnesses of Christ’s death and resurrection (that’s why apostolic succession is so important, as it continues this historical witness through Sacred Tradition). I would say there were a fair number of Jews who had converted but many more Gentiles.