Why do Catholics get so offended?

[ValPal]

To ValPal #41
What is childish is stubbornly dissenting from the teaching of Vatican II (post #38), and from the clear explanation of the revered Fr John A Hardon, S.J., and Bl John Paul II as to the historical context of the definitions, as though your erroneous interpretations trump Ecumenical Councils and Popes.

I’m not interpreting anything. I am simply noting what a Pope assertively stated and asking how it can be reconciled with what the Church currently teaches. You have made no effort to do so.

But I’m done with this discussion. Your insinuations and degrading demeanor is not the actions of a responsible adult, but rather a insecure and immature individual.

 

[Abu]

Those wishing to denounce the Church and Christ’s teaching through His Popes couldn’t care less about the facts as explained by real Catholics, but real Catholics do care and know:

1. Pope St Clement is very clear: Non-Catholics can be saved, and this in about 95 A.D.
2. Christ’s Church has always taught: All salvation comes through His Church, whether this is known or not known.
3. Some people have wished to understand this saying as: that the person who is not formally a practicing Catholic cannot be saved. The Church has condemned such an interpretation (cf. Denzinger-Schönmetzer, 3870-3873).

The “strong” language, historically, refers to those Catholics who chose to neglect or reject the Church’s teaching – assuming that the Gospel had been preached to all.

In trying to interpret papal documents of an earlier age, a common error is to fail to appreciate the different historical facts which were being addressed – thus leading to false conclusions of contradictions between them and later teaching. This is the case with Quanta Cura of Pius IX (1864) and similar documents which some have used to try to distort the unity of the teaching of Christ’s Church.

In Unam Sanctam (1302), Pope Boniface VIII was not addressing the world; nor was he even addressing the subject of non-Christians or non-Catholics. He was addressing Europeans–all Catholics. “Every creature” means a bunch of Catholics in Europe. And it is necessary for salvation for Catholics to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Otherwise, they have knowingly and deliberately exited the Catholic Church. Doing so is a mortal sin.

The Council of Florence: Decree for the Jacobites, 1442:
“….we can see from the vehemence of Patristic attacks on heretics, e.g., St. Cyprian “Ad Demetrianum,” that the Fathers have in mind those who are in bad faith, who culpably reject the Church. They do not seem to think of those who in-culpably fail to find the Church.[27] So from this point on, it becomes largely a question not of doctrine but of objective fact: how many are culpable? Further, this statement was made in 1442, before the 1492 discovery that there was a whole other world. The writers thought that the Gospel had actually reached every creature – it had not – and supposed, as we said, bad faith on the part of those who rejected it.” [Fr William Most, Our Father’s Plan, Trinity Communications, 1988, p 248].

 

[TheDoctor]

The words are clear. “It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims” is very strong language coming from a Pope, which is exactly why many Catholics believe this to be an ex cathedra pronunciation.

These are indeed strong words, so lets look again at the quotes:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life"

Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:
“Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and
others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even
heretics may attain eternal life."
I don’t see the crux of the matter in the words “firmly believes, professes and preaches”. In fact, although I do not think so, let’s for the sake of argument assume this is an ex cathedra statement. The crux is on the words “Catholic Church”. Both Popes believe and we agree that the only way to salvation is through the Catholic Church, but what does that mean? Where do either Eugene IV or Gregory XVI define it? Does it mean only card carrying Catholics? Only Latin Rite Catholics? Only those in full communion with the Church (what about the Orthodox who have Apostolic succession and full sacraments)? Only those formally practicing (how lapsed do you have to be to forfeit salvation)?

This is the question that is answered in the current catechism. Yes, it is true that if you are a pagan or a heretic or a schismatic or part of some other religion you cannot be saved because salvation is only through the Catholic Church - not through whatever religion you are practicing or not practicing.

However, that does not mean that these people need to be formal Mass going, envelope donating members of a parish church to share in salvation (it is our duty to explain the faith and to make them formal Mass going envelope donating members of a parish but that is another thread) but, if they do share in salvation it is through and because of the Catholic Church.

At least, that is how I see it.

 

[fbl9]

Are not all who are baptisted, triune formula, member of the Body of Christ?
For whom is the offering made for during Mass?

 

[GraceDK]

Not all
Catholics will be saved
Baptists will be saved
Methodist will be saved
Lutherans will be saved
Protestants will be saved.

Churches do no save people, belief and faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour saves people.

Indeed you are correct on that.
Jesus is the Way. There is no other way.

What you might wanna do, since you are interested in Catholicism to some degree, is to study the difference between the Evangelical view of Church and the Catholic one.
The difference is pretty important.

Jesus says: Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my Blood shall live by my Strength.
Its also written that the Church is the Body of Christ, Christ is the head.

Therefore as Catholics we do not so readily divide the Body and Head from each other, you see… but we really truly believe that Jesus promises are true: The Holy Spirit will guide the Church. Through the Church will be revealed all the truth, The Church is the foundation and pillar of truth… These are all Biblical quotes. At the same time then we have Jesus saying: I am the Truth.
Its pretty clear that He somehow mystically indentifies himself with the Church…

If you like to read, how about “By what authority?” my Mark Shea… its one heck of a book

Blessings from a former Protestant… ps. good to have you here

 

[Luvtosew]

Grace, thank you, actually I have been Catholic for over 50 years, mind you a not well informed Catholic, and I did come here to learn more, of which I have learned the real meaning of communion and a lot of other stuff that I wish I hadn’t , and after two years, I now consider myself a Christian without a church as of yet. I do thank you for your kind post. there are many wonderful Catholic people here so really nothing I say is any way personal to anyone, just my opinions, in such I don’t think only Catholic Christians can be saved, it more depends on each individual and their relationship to God, as often I get the drift that many Catholics believe only Catholics can be saved, as well meaning as they are, but I do know where that idea stems from.

 

[GraceDK]

Grace, thank you, actually I have been Catholic for over 50 years, mind you a not well informed Catholic, and I did come here to learn more, of which I have learned the real meaning of communion and a lot of other stuff that I wish I hadn’t , and after two years, I now consider myself a Christian without a church as of yet. I do thank you for your kind post. there are many wonderful Catholic people here so really nothing I say is any way personal to anyone, just my opinions, in such I don’t think only Catholic Christians can be saved, it more depends on each individual and their relationship to God, as often I get the drift that many Catholics believe only Catholics can be saved, as well meaning as they are, but I do know where that idea stems from.

Hey sister.

First of, I don’t know any Catholic who believes only Catholics can be saved or that faith in Jesus isn’t the most important determinator when we talk about someone who probably made it to heaven.

What made ya leave the Church?

I’ve been extensively visiting different churches (Pentecostal, Lutheran, Messianic and Catholic) and I soon came to the realisation that oftentimes different Christian groups misunderstand each other massively because they use the same words but mean different things. Its quite sad, and yet the remedy is to try to understand the others, and always give them the benefit of the doubt.

About the salvation question, the Catholic Church doesn’t say who isn’t saved. It does sometimes proclaim a saint, and a saint is someone who lived a remarkably virtuous life of loving Christ and neighbour … so these we say are in heaven. But we don’t say who isn’t. We believe the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, so she can know that certain people are in Heaven.

The Bible says the one who believes in Christ and is baptized will be saved. When I went to the Pentecostal Church I saw that many young people were not yet baptized, however they practised something called “dedication”. In the Catholic Church we believe that even people who die before they got baptized may well go to heaven, if they have the baptism of desire, or were ignorant. We do know that God is the judge because He alone knows man’s heart.

But you are right that there is only one way and that is thru Christ. His Blood alone makes atonement for our sins and reconciles us with the Father.

Jesus says in the Bible: “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you”. It also says: “When you confess your sins he is quick to forgive”. And: Jesus breathed into the 12 and said: “receive the Holy Spirit: whatever sins you forgive on earth are forgiven in heaven…” Later in Acts we read about the first council where the Holy Spirit led the Church although Jesus had gone back to heaven… And in year 382 - still guided by the Holy Spirit - the Catholic Church proclaimed what books belonged to Sacred Scripture and which didn’t. Its interesting that up until then the Christians were guided by their local Churches, they didn’t have the Bible as we know it… yet they died for the true apostolic faith in numbers.

Anyway… I’m glad you are here. I became a personal believer at age 21, and my soul has found its home in the Catholic Church… so too has my intellectual side, my historical consciousness - Catholic Church is the only one, together with the orthodox - which goes way back, my reason and my sexuality.
For me the Catholic Church is the only Church that keeps and interprets the Scripture, all of it, without leaving out passages etc. I am particularly blessed through the Sacraments. Since I didn’t grow up with them I know a little bit, what a great help and honour it is to go to Confession or receive the Body of our Lord (The Eucharist is main reason why I had to become Catholic).

Its furthermore clear for me that Jesus intended for an actual institution, since he choose 12 men to be apostles. And even Paul writes about structure and episcopal laying on of hands…
Anyway, I have derailed the thread.

It really would interest me what you are currently thinking of, in terms of Church… Its not good for man to be alone… this too means that its best to have a fellowship with other believers.

Peace and shalom to you