Why do Catholics say "trespasses" instead of "debts" in the Lord's prayer

[hn160]

Lutherans also say trespasses and the Calvinist/Reform Churches use debts in the Lord’s Prayer. In 1817, the Calvinist King of Prussia tried to force the Lutherans and Reform into a Union Church called the Prussian Union. The Lutherans revolted, not only because of doctrine and the Lord’s Supper but because of the Lord’s Prayer. Lutheran follow the Latin in German: Vater unser, der du bist im Himmel. The Reform say in German: Unser Vater, der du bist im Himmel.

 

[pollycarp]

I’ve had debts and trespasses. Trespasses are worse.

 

[andrewstx]

I am sure the OP uses the word debt in the Our Father becuase the Disciple’s founders were Presbyterian and they use debts.

Interestingly enough the Russian Orthodox church uses debts too. Translated from the Greek, while perhaps tresspass comes from the latin.

Russian Orthodox Our Father.

Our Father, who art in the heavens hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
Amen

Then the doxology in the divine liturgy.

For thine is the kingdom the power, and the glory of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and to the ages of ages.

 

[Cristiano]

I am sure the OP uses the word debt in the Our Father becuase the Disciple’s founders were Presbyterian and they use debts.

Interestingly enough the Russian Orthodox church uses debts too. Translated from the Greek, while perhaps tresspass comes from the latin.

Russian Orthodox Our Father.

Our Father, who art in the heavens hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
Amen

Then the doxology in the divine liturgy.

For thine is the kingdom the power, and the glory of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and to the ages of ages.

Why do you say that trespasses comes from the Latin?

Pater Noster qui es in cælis:
sanctificétur nomen tuum;
advéniat regnum tuum;
fiat volúntas tua,
sicut in cælo, et in terra.
Panem nostrum cotidianum
da nobis hódie;
et dimítte nobis débita nostra,
sicut et nos
dimíttimus debitóribus nostris;
et ne nos indúcas in tentatiónem;
sed líbera nos a malo.
Amen.

Luke used the term sin/trespasses while Matthew used the term debt that has a more juridical connotation.

 

[GangGreen]

Another example of borrowing from the common Anglican translations:

The original Latin: Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto, Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.

From the Anglican Book of Common Prayer: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost; As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

A more literal translation of the Latin: Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, As it was in the beginning, also now, and always, and to ages of ages. Amen.

Ever since I learned the Latin version of these prayers I always wondered about this one especially. I thought that they’d fix it with the new translations, but I guess they didn’t want to confuse everyone and change the two of the prayers that every single Catholic knows.

To me a translation that would at least sound good in English but stay faithful to the Latin is:

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and always will be forever. Amen.

or something like that. The “world without end” part seemingly comes from nowhere.

 

[ProVobis]

Ever since I learned the Latin version of these prayers I always wondered about this one especially. I thought that they’d fix it with the new translations, but I guess they didn’t want to confuse everyone and change the two of the prayers that every single Catholic knows.

To me a translation that would at least sound good in English but stay faithful to the Latin is:

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and always will be forever. Amen.

or something like that. The “world without end” part seemingly comes from nowhere.

As long as it’s not “forever and ever.”

You’re right about the “world without end” part.

in French “et in saecula seculorum” becomes “pour les siècles des siècles”

in Italian “nei secoli dei secoli”

in Spanish “por los siglos de los siglos”

in Polish “na wieki wieków”

rosary-center.org/rosaryprayers.htm

 

[SilverCamellia]

The ‘Our Father’ I learnt in my Church of England school was:

Our Father,
Who art in Heaven,
Hallowed by Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come,
Thy Will be done,
On earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us;
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory,
For ever and ever,
Amen.

 

[PJM]

=MattofTexas;10259554]A little background:
I come from a Protestant faith tradition (the Disciples of Christ) and am considering converting to Catholicism. One thing I’ve noticed is that when Catholics say the Lord’s Prayer or Our Father you say “trespasses” whereas I learned it with “debts”. I know this is 1. unimportant, and 2. not universally the same across Protestantism either- but I would like to know why the English liturgy of the Our Father uses those words, especially in light of the Latin:

Are these not the very words from which “debt” and “debtors” are derived from? So why use one version in Latin and another in English?

Because to “traspass” is to invade; to wrong; or to abuse or take advantage of

Debt: on the other hand “debt” is someting owed; and certainly sins do incur a debt;

IMO “traspass” points out a WRONG in a more direct manner.

pat/PJM

 

[ProVobis]

FWIW

trespass (v.)

c.1300, “transgress, offend, sin,” from Old French trespasser “pass beyond or across,” from tres- “beyond” (from Latin trans-) + passer “go by, pass” (see pass (v.)). Meaning “enter unlawfully” is first attested in forest laws of Scottish Parliament (c.1455). The noun is recorded from late 13c. The modern descendant of Old French trespasser, French trépasser has come to be used euphemistically for “to die” (cf. cross over, and obituary).

 

[andrewstx]

Why do you say that trespasses comes from the Latin?

Pater Noster qui es in cælis:
sanctificétur nomen tuum;
advéniat regnum tuum;
fiat volúntas tua,
sicut in cælo, et in terra.
Panem nostrum cotidianum
da nobis hódie;
et dimítte nobis débita nostra,
sicut et nos
dimíttimus debitóribus nostris;
et ne nos indúcas in tentatiónem;
sed líbera nos a malo.
Amen.

Luke used the term sin/trespasses while Matthew used the term debt that has a more juridical connotation.

Well I did say “perhaps”. The latin does indeed say debts. How did then it come to trespasses? The more I read the more confuseder I get.