why do kjv only people deny existence of LXX and influnce of vulgate on kjv?

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Daniel_Marsh said:
Would you recommend Chirichigno and Archer’s book or Bratcher’s book?

If you are dealing with a person who is a scholar which knows greek or hebrew, use Chirichigno and Archer’s book.

If you are dealing with the average joe who only knows English, then Bratcher’s book is most useful.

So, most of the time I would recommend using Bratcher, since a scholar can take his book and open a copy of the Hebrew MT, and Greek LXX text for himself. But, recommend C & A book to him to save time.

So, go with Bratcher’s book.

👍
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I think I will go with both books. I have gift cards for Border’s and/or Amazon.com. I have not used them yet. You have just given me an idea on how to use them. I will order both books!👍
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
why do kjv only people deny existence of LXX and influnce of vulgate on kjv?

What arguments do they come up with by denying the existence of the LXX in Jesus day, and denying that the apostles quoted from it in the gospels?

Why do they deny the influnce of the Latin Vulgate on the King James Translation?

What are the major influnces of the Latin Vulgate on the King James Version?
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Douay-Rheims Bible Ephesians 2 :8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory.

KJV EPH.002:008 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
002:009 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(Douay-Rheims Bible) Romans 6: 23 For the wages of sin is death. But the GRACE of God, life everlasting, in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(KJV) Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord”

Is it Grace or a Gift?
 
Romans 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
 
Note, manuscripts for the LXX exist in the dead sea scrolls.

KJV onlyists thinks because a manuscript is from egypt it is somehow tainted.

Their logic escapes me.

They claim that newer translations are associated with the New Age movement and yet none of those translations teach New Age doctines like reincarnation for example.
 
Then, in 1993, my KJV only perspective began to change, because that was the year New Age Bible Versions was published. The author, Gail Riplinger, gathered all the threads of knowledge pertaining to textual criticism her degree in interior design provided
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fredsbibletalk.com/fb019.html

Samuel C. Gipp, a former pastor, is an evangelist, teacher, author and Bible conference speaker. He has the unique ability to digest large amounts of information and then present it in an analytical, understandable, format. His humerous, informative and forceful preaching style make him popular with all ages and keeps him in demand as a Revivalist and Bible conference speaker. Brother Gipp was apart of a panel of defenders of the King James Bible on the “John Ankerberg Show.” Also, his life’s story was featured on the national radio program, “Unshackled.”
samgipp.com/GippBooks_Articles.html

Does anyone know where Sam Gipp was trained? what degrees? what his thesis was?
 
Translating for King James :
being a true copy of the only notes made by a translator of King James’s Bible : the Authorized Version, as the Final Committee of Review revised the translation of Romans through Revelation at Stationers’ Hall in London in 1610-11 /
Author: Bois, John, 1561-1644.; Allen, Ward,; Walker, Anthony,
Publication: London, 1970
Document: English : Book

Does anyone have access to this book? If so, could you scan it to list examples of where the latin vulgate influnced the king james bible?

thanks

Daniel
 
truthnlight said:
Romans 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
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Ok, TnL -

I miss the point of this post. Wassup widdit? :confused:

Sub
 
The Bible teaches that its message will have one of two effects on people: Either it will stir their hearts to faith, or it will harden them and drive them away. As the apostle Paul said in II Corinthians 2:15-16:

“For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish. To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?”

What St. Paul is saying is that the Gospel is not merely information that one can accept or dismiss. It is a living thing that draws some people near and pushes others away.

God recognizes that many people who hear His words will reject them, to their own destruction. As He told the prophet Ezekiel:

“But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house.”
Ezekiel 3:27

Jesus Himself warned us that most people will not reach Paradise, and exhorted us in Matthew 17:13-14:

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

Does that mean that God’s Word is weak, or that it has failed? Not at all. For the Bible is not only a call to belief; it is a discerner, a witness, and a judge. As Hebrews 4:12 tells us:

The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." :knight2:

How do you respond to the Bible? Do you rejoice at its message, or do you consider it foolish and corrupt? Is it the aroma of life to you, or the smell of dead things? Either way, your heart has been laid bare - and your future has been revealed to you, unless you change. :extrahappy: :dts:

Jesus warns us in John 12:47-48 that this very Word will judge us on the Last Day:

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

Therefore, do not think that you have defeated or nullified this Word when you or your fellow adherents reject it. I tell you, you have not defeated this Word, it has defeated you:

“Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”
I Corinthians 1:20-25

I pray that God’s blessing will be upon you. 🙂
Amen.
 
truthnlight said:
The Bible teaches that its message will have one of two effects on people: Either it will stir their hearts to faith, or it will harden them and drive them away. As the apostle Paul said in II Corinthians 2:15-16:

“For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish. To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?”

What St. Paul is saying is that the Gospel is not merely information that one can accept or dismiss. It is a living thing that draws some people near and pushes others away.

God recognizes that many people who hear His words will reject them, to their own destruction. As He told the prophet Ezekiel:

“But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house.”
Ezekiel 3:27

Jesus Himself warned us that most people will not reach Paradise, and exhorted us in Matthew 17:13-14:

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

Does that mean that God’s Word is weak, or that it has failed? Not at all. For the Bible is not only a call to belief; it is a discerner, a witness, and a judge. As Hebrews 4:12 tells us:

The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." :knight2:

How do you respond to the Bible? Do you rejoice at its message, or do you consider it foolish and corrupt? Is it the aroma of life to you, or the smell of dead things? Either way, your heart has been laid bare - and your future has been revealed to you, unless you change. :extrahappy: :dts:

Jesus warns us in John 12:47-48 that this very Word will judge us on the Last Day:

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

Therefore, do not think that you have defeated or nullified this Word when you or your fellow adherents reject it. I tell you, you have not defeated this Word, it has defeated you:

“Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”
I Corinthians 1:20-25

I pray that God’s blessing will be upon you. 🙂
Amen.
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What does this have to do with the influence of the Septuagint on the KJV?
 
Biblia hebraica
Author: Kittel, Rudolf,; Kahle, Paul, and others

The earliest editions of the Hebrew Bible.
Author: Goldschmidt, Lazarus, 1871-1950.; Kahle, Paul,

I have read Paul Kahle’s works and he makes no such claim about the LXX. In fact, if you did not know it Kittel and Kahle are bed fellows.

Note: It was claimed that Paul Kahle teaches that the LXX did not exist until Origen basically made it up.

Amazing, whoever told you that about Kahle does not know what he or she is talking about.

Note: it was claimed that based on 1 Chronicles 16:4 only levite preists are to write scripture.

First, “to record” does not mean to write scripture, and even if it did mean to write, it has the meaning of record keeping in general, thus one could simply be keeping a record of who made sacrafices. However, the basic meaning of the hebrew word is to make a memorial, to make known to all, to preach if you will.

If you really believe that only priests of Levi wrote scripture, then you should be able to show exactly where all the authors of scripture became priests of Levi.

As you know a priest of Levi must come from the tribe of levi. Right. Think about it, King David belonged to the tribe of Judah, not the tribe of Levi. So, we can rule him out, right off the bat as being a priest of Levi, and he wrote the book of Psalms. By your authors’ misinterpretation then, do we throw the book of Psalms away? remove it from scritpture?

The NT recognises the book of Psalms as being scripture in Luke 20:42, Luke 24:44. So, we have at least one exception to your authors’ made up rule.

1 Chronicles 16:4 (King James Version)

And he appointed certain of the Levites to minister before the ark of the LORD, and to record, and to thank and praise the LORD God of Israel:

note: see bible.cc/1_chronicles/16-4.htm

From Strong’s
  1. to remember, recall, call to mind
a) (Qal) to remember, recall

b) (Niphal) to be brought to remembrance, be remembered, be thought of, be brought to mind

c) (Hiphil)
  1. to cause to remember, remind
  2. to cause to be remembered, keep in remembrance
  3. to mention
  4. to record
  5. to make a memorial, make remembrance
Note: it was claimed that the extra catholic books did not exist before the time of Christ. One needs only google one of the books like Tobit and Dead Sea Scrolls to see otherwise.

Quote:​

In those days I little realized how the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the late '40s and early '50s would influence my life’s work. These treasures were first discovered in 1947, in what is called Qumran Cave 1. In 1952 Qumran Cave 4 was discovered, and out of it came 40,000 fragments that had to be pieced together like a giant jigsaw puzzle. By 1960, when the puzzle was more or less finished, close to 580 fragmentary texts had been assembled. Some were biblical texts, copies of Old Testament books; others were sectarian writings, rulebooks, hymnbooks, or prayer books of the Essenes, the Jewish community who had dwelled in Qumran.

Among the documents in Cave 4 were fragmentary copies of the Book of Tobit, four in Aramaic and one in Hebrew. The person to whom these texts were entrusted for publication sat on them for nearly 40 years and never published them.

Near the end of 1991 I was asked to prepare the Tobit texts for publication. The Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem sent me ten photographs of the texts, which I spent a year studying and transcribing; I ultimately traveled to Jerusalem for a close inspection of the fragments themselves. My work on these Tobit texts makes up volume 19 of the series, Discoveries in the Judaean Desert, published by Clarendon Press in Oxford. In it I give for each fragment the transcription of its text, a translation into English, and a brief commentary, which compares the original Aramaic or Hebrew text with the ancient Greek and Latin versions of the story, which have long been known.

It is not easy to assess the importance of the discovery of these Tobit fragments among the Dead Sea Scrolls. On the one hand, it means that we now have recovered about a fifth of the Book of Tobit in a Semitic language, some in Aramaic and some in Hebrew, and this version, which dates to around the second century b.c., is a much earlier version than what we had until the discovery of these Qumran fragments. But on the other hand, these fragments of Tobit will modify the Tobit story in revisions of modern Bibles.
companysj.com/v141/written.html

p067.ezboard.com/fthetruth11187frm4.showMessage?topicID=80.topic

p067.ezboard.com/fthetruth11187frm2.showMessageRange?topicID=1190.topic&start=26&stop=46
 
Despite its legendary character, Aristeas’ account gained credence; Aristobulus (170-50 B.C.), in a passage preserved by Eusebius, says that “through the efforts of Demetrius of Phalerus a complete translation of the Jewish legislation was executed in the days of Ptolemy”; Aristeas’s story is repeated almost verbatim by Flavius Josephus (Ant. Jud., XII, ii) and substantially, with the omission of Aristeas’ name, by Philo of Alexandria (De vita Moysis, II, vi). the letter and the story were accepted as genuine by many Fathers and ecclesiastical writers till the beginning of the sixteenth century; other details serving to emphasize the extraordinary origin of the version were added to Aristeas’s account" The seventy-two interpreters were inspired by God (Tertullian, St. Augustine, the author of the “Cohortatio ad Graecos” [Justin?], and others); in translating they did not consult with one another, they had even been shut up in separate cells, either singly, or in pairs, and their translations when compared were found to agree entirely both as to the sense and the expressions employed with the original text and with each other (Cohortatio ad Graecos, St. Irenæus, St. Clement of Alexandria). St. Jerome rejected the story of the cells as fabulous and untrue (“Praef. in Pentateuchum”;“Adv. Rufinum”, II, xxv). likewise the alleged inspiration of the Septuagint. Finally the seventy two interpreters translated, not only the five books of the Pentateuch, but the entire Hebrew Old Testament. The authenticity of the letter, called in question first by Louis Vivès (1492-1540), professor at Louvain (Ad S. August. Civ. Dei, XVIII, xlii), then by Jos. Scaliger (d. 1609), and especially by H. Hody (d. 1705) and Dupin (d. 1719) is now universally denied.

newadvent.org/cathen/13722a.htm

Can anyone shed light on this above?
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Can anyone shed light on this above?
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There’s not much need for additional light. The authenticity of The Letter of Aristeas is universally denied (for obvious reasons). That leaves the “origin” of the LXX lost to history. We have no idea of how it came to be. Did it exist prior to the apostolic age? Only a KJVO will deny it.

The logic of the KJVOs is somewhat akin to the paradoxes of Zeno, and one can waste a great deal of time trying to chase them into a logical corner. And it isn’t really important to do so, for what would you gain if you succeeded? “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”

The Bible, read carefully, says pretty much the same thing in every serious translation. Read carelessly, however, one translation will give occasion for a misinterpretation here, while a different translation will give occasion for a misinterpretation there.
 
I am still waiting for them to prove their conspiracy theory. Once one dives into conspiracy theories, they have stepped outside of historical study, because their claims can not be verified.

Josephus for example refers to the LXX in his writings. But, they must be thinking we can not trust what Josephus wrote.

Therefore, I wonder if there was a baptist conspirsay to add the passage to Josephus about the Hebrew canon being limited to 24 books? Neither conspiracy can neither be proven, nor falsified – both are just as invalid.

Quote:​

Fallacy of the Week: Argument from Ignorance

Wierd conspiracy theories could not exist without this handy fallacy, but it is one for which juries are often total suckers.

Argumetium ad ignorantium - “argument from ignorance”, or “argument from incredulity”, does not mean argument from stupidity - it means argument from a proposition which cannot be proven as fact, or from a proposition which cannot readily be disproven due to “ignorance” - eg lack of data.

The lack of certain evidence for, or against, something does not make it either untrue, or believeable. Nor does the lack of certain evidence for something make an alternative theory more likely to be true.

…

Here’s another: “Abe Lincoln greatly enjoyed his male friends and colleagues, so he probably was gay.” Prove that isn’t true.

…

Or, “Would my client, an experienced driver, forget to put n his parking brake? Impossible. My client deliberately declined to put on his parking brake, because he was afraid that the brake might fail on his '57 convertible Chevy, so he put it safely in “park” before it unfortunately, and tragically, but innocently, rolled down over all of those nice families at the beach.”

Try to prove I am wrong on that. Doubt? He’s a nice guy - your next-door neighbor - not a murderer or a manslaughterer. He just likes antique Chevys, like we all do.​

maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom…rance.html

What’s the motive behind their conspiracy theory? Maybe the fact, that some of the LXX manuscripts contained those extra catholic books?

👍
 
The existence of the legend myth story about the LXX in Jesus day proves that the LXX existed in Jesus’ day and had to come into existence beforehand.

Young Earth Creationist for example employ myths worldwide about floods to prove that there was in fact a worldwide flood.
 
“Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary” by Henry Alford

for some reason i am thinking that this work employs the vulgate in it critical commentary. Does anyone have this set to check this?
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Does anyone have this set to check this?
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I have the set and can check it late tonight. (I have one more plumbing call to run before calling it quits.) But just what do you want to know? Citing the Vulgate as, for instance, a textual witness is a very common practice.
 
Calvinator said:
I’m not sure how many posters here will check out this book recomendation…but James White wrote an excellent book on the KJV only movement. I suspect he isn’t very popular around here.
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Hello Calvinator,
Code: 
  Blessing to you and your family! In deed this is an excellent source of information almost as good as his "The forgotten Trinity" of which we have a copy at the St Marys Seminary Library here in Baltimore (One of the best Theological Libraries in the East coast if I may add:D ). 

  In fact I personally visit Dr. White's blog daily, I find it a great source of information (Although I have to admit that sometimes his style might be a detriment to what he is trying to communicate). Whenever he makes a challenging point, I look at what the church teaches and the development of this teaching, I usually do not look at what "online" catholic apologists have said about his points, I like to look to more "scholarly" works.I have to admit that because of this I have developed a deeper appreciation of church history, and the development of church dogma. I'm very grateful for this as I feel my faith, love and knowledge for the Church and its teachings have been strengthen by these exercises. 

 So you can say that he is very popular with at least one Catholic Cleric! :)
In His love…

A Catholic Deacon
 
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