Why do other faiths believe we have pagan roots?

[benotagoat]

***We are not saying that YOU - CARMEN - are anti-Catholic but have stated that the beliefs of Catholicism having pagan roots is anti-Catholic propaganda. ***

Even my pagan friends who are leaders in a Coven make a clear distinction between the Catholic faith and Paganism. These pagan friends are anti-Catholic. Only God knows how our friendship works. I’ve learned a lot about Paganism through these friends of mine. When I witness to friends who are not Christian I make it a point to learn where it is they’re coming from, I learn about their faith and their belief systems. In the process I ask them questions and actually read some of the articles they suggest for me to read. Of course, I have to use discernment and make sure I’m prayed up before reading through such articles. There are times where I become sensitive to the spiritual battle and in such cases I take a step back where needed. But that all said, I’m not about to tell my Pagan friends I know more about Paganism then they do because in truth I don’t.

I was never anti-Catholic but I had wrongfully believed anti-Catholic propaganda when I mixed with the Pentecostal / Charismatic movement. Had you told me then that I’d become Catholic I would have laughed in your face! Because I too had believed that Catholics worshipped Mary. I didn’t get why Catholics prayed to Mary and the Saints… If we could go directly to God why? I didn’t get confession, why confess to a Priest when I can confess directly to God? I didn’t get it. I too had believed that the Catholic faith was a works based faith and that every Catholic needed a personal relationship with Jesus because I assumed Catholics didn’t have a personal relationship with Jesus. I too believed for a short period of time that Catholicism had pagan roots.

I’ve probably read some of the same stuff you have but eventually I saw that the authors behind the anti-Catholic material had ZERO credibility behind them.

***Really, in addressing this topic we have to ask the tough questions… ***

***WHO REALLY FOUNDED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH? ***

***The anti-Catholic propagandists would have you believe Constantine founded the Catholic Church. ***

***WHO ARE THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS? ***

*While attending a Pentecostal Bible College I was told the Early Church Father’s came after the Apostles and their writings were good reading as it gives us a glimpse of what the early Church was like. I was also told that the additional books in the Catholic Bible were good for reading and didn’t take away from the Bible Protestants were reading. *

***WHY DO WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO RESEARCH THE WRITINGS OF THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS? ***

**Because what the Catholic Church teaches today the Early Church Fathers were teaching back then. And what the Early Church Fathers were teaching is consistent with what the Apostles were teaching. The writings of the Early Church Father’s establishes that the Early Church was in fact, Catholic. **

You see, the Bible is a Catholic book! The Catholic Church gave the Bible to the world. Don’t you think that Catholic Theologians would understand their own literature?

By the way Carmen - PEACE & LOVE in Christ !!! :hug1:

There you go, digging a bigger hole for yourselves .
The bible is the Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit .It beongs to no one except those who read it or here it and follow it’s Truth .
The gospel writers were not Catholics, but Jews and so were Paul and all the Apostles and disciples .Not a Roman Catholic among them .

What you mean is that you compiled together to put in a book what manuscripts and books would go into what later became the bible.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

There you go, digging a bigger hole for yourselves .

REALLY !!

The bible is the Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit .It beongs to no one except those who read it or here it and follow it’s Truth .
The gospel writers were not Catholics, but Jews and so were Paul and all the Apostles and disciples .Not a Roman Catholic among them.

On the day of Pentecost is arguably the “birth of the Church” … some of the Early Church Father’s were directly the disciples of the Apostles. And some of the Early Church Father’s came a little after… quite a few hundred years between the span of the writings of the Early Church Fathers.

Between the writings of the Early Church Father’s and the Apostles you see what was birthed was … guess what!? The Catholic Church! The Bible is therefore Catholic literature. All throughout the first relatively 1500 years of the Churches existence the Bible was known as Catholic literature, letters written to various communities that were being lead by various Apostles. The term Catholic was even used in the earliest writings of the Early Church Fathers… therefore, the Church all throughout the history up until the Reformation was known to be Catholic. Prior to the Reformation there wasn’t a Protestant Tradition yet formed. So… who read the bible before the Reformation? Where was Sacred Scripture read prior to the Reformation? Oh ya, the Catholic Church !! :banghead:
lol

What you mean is that you compiled together to put in a book what manuscripts and books would go into what later became the bible.

What I mean, is that some of the Apostles wrote letters to various communities. Jesus established the Catholic Church and through the Apostles the Early Church Fathers were discipled and carried on the TRADITIONS the Apostles taught them. TRADITIONS that continue only within the Catholic, Orthodox, and Coptic Churches.

And who has the Authority to decide which books are included in the Bible and which books are not?

Who wrote the letters? Oh ya, the Apostles who by the way may have been Messianic and Jesus may have been brought up as a Jew but these letters were given first to the Church that Jesus Christ established. OK … the Catholic Church. So … Prior to the Reformation the Bible was and still is a Catholic book. Protestants may use the Bible and claim the Bible as their own but in truth the Bible is Catholic literature.

Unless you can somehow provide substantial evidence that suggest the Early Church Father’s were not discipled as Catholics by the Apostles?

OK … When I refer to the Bible I recognize that the OT is part of the Bible and of course the OT is Jewish literature. However, the books compiled together eventually to be called the Bible was known as Catholic literature that include Jewish literature of course but the bible was never known as Protestant literature until after the Reformation. It’s funny though how some Protestants somehow believe that Catholics don’t read the bible I know, even among Catholics we surprise ourselves when it comes to reading the bible … but still, traditionally the Bible is Jewish letters combined with letters written to various communities within the Church Jesus Christ established. And for the sake of redundancy, that Church was the Catholic Church … unless you can provide substantial evidence to prove otherwise?

When you take a closer look however, Jesus coming as he did ideally God intended for Israel to recognize their Messiah but unfortunately only a few recognized who Jesus Christ is. I don’t think that God’s intended purpose was for Jewish vs Christian but rather there come a fulfillment of the Jewish faith in Jesus! But that’s not what happened. What happened is that Jesus established His Church that up until Constantine was pretty much a secluded sect of people who were under ground in their faith. It wasn’t until Constantine where the Christian faith was able to come above ground … I assume we all know Church History?

 

[zz912]

The bible is the Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit .It beongs to no one except those who read it or here it and follow it’s Truth .

The Bible says to listen to the Church to know the truth. Do you follow this instruction?

The gospel writers were not Catholics, but Jews and so were Paul and all the Apostles and disciples .Not a Roman Catholic among them .

Of course not “Roman”, as the Latin rite is only one rite among many in the Catholic Church. Exactly when do you think the Church described in Acts became known as the “Catholic Church”?

What you mean is that you compiled together to put in a book what manuscripts and books would go into what later became the bible.

You obviously haven’t actually considered the question of WHY the Bible was compiled in the first place. It wasn’t until almost 4 hundred years after the Church was born that the 73 books that ended up in the Bible were laid out. But do you know WHY they were laid out???

It wasn’t to declare what books were the word of God. It was to declare what books COULD, and COULD NOT be read AT MASS. The Catholic Church declared that 73 books were allowed to be read at Mass, and these 73 books began to be compiled together for ease in copying and use in the Mass. Over time, this collection of 73 books became known as the Bible (which means “books”).

 

[SjMelnychuk]

The Bible says to listen to the Church to know the truth. Do you follow this instruction?

Of course not “Roman”, as the Latin rite is only one rite among many in the Catholic Church. Exactly when do you think the Church described in Acts became known as the “Catholic Church”?

You obviously haven’t actually considered the question of WHY the Bible was compiled in the first place. It wasn’t until almost 4 hundred years after the Church was born that the 73 books that ended up in the Bible were laid out. But do you know WHY they were laid out???

It wasn’t to declare what books were the word of God. It was to declare what books COULD, and COULD NOT be read AT MASS. The Catholic Church declared that 73 books were allowed to be read at Mass, and these 73 books began to be compiled together for ease in copying and use in the Mass. Over time, this collection of 73 books became known as the Bible (which means “books”).

To which I’d like to ask people who believe the bible is the sole rule of authority, what did the Church do for the first 400 years without the bible?

 

[Mousey]

I am sorry but your experience of the Church is recent and of short history

No you are wrong it is a long history beginning almost 2000 years ago.

The Church has certainly improved ,but it had to be pushed to do so

The Church is perfect the people within her are not. The Church is inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit.

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it

. I know more about her positives and lacks than you do and we will leave it at that

You know who he is ,what his background is and his knowledge is excuse me for saying so but it is an arrogant statement.

.I am glad that you are having a positive experience really I am ,and there is much that is positive indeed .

The fullness of faith. The fullness of what Jesus wanted.

 

[steve_b]

There you go, digging a bigger hole for yourselves .
The bible is the Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit .-]It beongs to no one except those who read it or here it and follow it’s Truth /-].

I applaud you for believing that. Someone did a good job teaching you that. Now how are you gonna prove it? Give me your proofs. Where’s your evidence? I want to see your argument.

BTW, Luther, the founder of the Protestant division and heresy, removed 7 books from the bible he received from the Catholic Church. Making his own bible. Imagine THAT?
b:

The gospel writers were not Catholics, but Jews and so were Paul and all the Apostles and disciples .Not a Roman Catholic among them .

Is that your argument? Not Catholics and not a “Roman” Catholic among them?

Here’s a quick history of the 1st 4 centuries. They didn’t teach you this in Protestant 101. Notice, you can read all these links at “ccel” as well. iow Calvin College… obviously a Protestant college making available Christian history i.e Catholic history. The Catholic Church has been there from the beginning. **#34 **be sure to open the internal links.

BTW, until the council of Rome in 382, there WAS no bible. No approved canon. It was the decree of Pope Damasus I, that gave us the approved canon of the bible. Almost 400 years of Church history and no bible. Imagine that?
b:

What you mean is that you compiled together to put in a book what manuscripts and books would go into what later became the bible.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, James… all wrote to the Church they were IN and building.

That’s the Catholic Church.

 

[steve_b]

There you go, digging a bigger hole for yourselves .

The gospel writers were not Catholics, but Jews and so were Paul and all the Apostles and disciples .Not a Roman Catholic among them .

In addition to my previous post,

When Our Lord said “I will build my Church”

• That is the Catholic Church #[34 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11997086&postcount=34)** . **It’s been there in writing from the beginning.
• You do realize Romans, the favorite book of Protestants, was written to the Church of Rome…right? Imagine that. Paul writing to Roman Catholics that were already there.
• You do realize, Paul was a convert. When he wrote to the Church of Rome, he said
• Rm 1:7 To all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints:Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.c] 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you always in my prayers, 10 asking that somehow by God’s will I may now at last succeed in coming to you.d] 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you, 12 that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith, both yours and mine. 13 I want you to know, brethren, that I have often intended to come to you (but thus far have been prevented), in order that I may reap some harveste] among you as well as among the rest of the Gentiles. 14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish: 15 so I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
• News flash!!! Peter already planted the Church in Rome, that Paul is writing to.
• Paul writes, the faith and obedience of this Church has already been heard throughout Christendom.
• Now Paul is also building this Church
• This letter of Paul’s is written before Acts and the Gospels.

So may I suggest,

• when digging, and YOU find YOURSELF in a hole, … You should STOP DIGGING!
• Before you as a Protestant start lecturing Catholics, get a handle on your own history first. [The Great Heresies (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-great-heresies) of history

For a heads up, and full disclosure

[Titus 3:10 (Titus 3:10 RSVCE - As for a man who is factious, after - Bible Gateway)
“As for a man who is factious ( [αἱρετικὸν (http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm) heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

 

[SjMelnychuk]

**Why do Protestants ignore the fact that Martin Luther subtracted 7 books of the bible and that after an intense debate tried to subtract the book of James and Revelations too. The question remains, who has the authority to decide which books of the Bible are inspired and which are not? Who made these decisions and who or what gives them that authority?

And again, for the first 400 years what did the Church do without the Bible? Could it be that the Bible Alone is not the sole rule of faith? Just thoughts here, what did the Church do before the Bible? Could it be the Traditions that the Apostles passed down to those they discipled? And if so, just what were these Traditions? These Traditions are still a part of the Catholic Church. **

2 Thessalonians 2:15 English Standard Version (ESV)
15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

***2 Thessalonians 2:15 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
***15 So then, brothers and sisters,[a] stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

BY SPOKEN WORD OR BY LETTER

1 Corinthians 11:2 English Standard Version (ESV)
2 Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.

***THE CHURCH OF CORINTH BEING COMMENDED FOR MAINTAINING THE TRADITIONS THAT WERE TAUGHT TO THEM. ***

Mark 7:8 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”

Mark 7:13 English Standard Version (ESV)
13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

SO THE QUESTION REMAINS, WHO REALLY MADE UP THEIR OWN TRADITIONS? WHEN THE BIBLE TALKS ABOUT MAN-MADE TRADITIONS, WHICH ARE THESE MAN-MADE TRADITIONS AND WHICH TRADITIONS WAS THE CHURCH IN CORINTH COMMENDED FOR?

Read again the following verses:

note some translations write “teachings” but it’s more accurately translated traditions… so I provided both ESV translation as well as Catholic Edition translations… you can easily go to Bible Gateway for multiple translations of these texts.

**2 Thess 2:15
1 Cor 11:1
Mark 7:8, 13 **

And now answer the 3 questions:

1. Which TRADITION is the Church in Corinth commended for?
2. Which TRADITION are referred to as MAN-MADE?
3. How do we know which TRADITIONS (taught by word of mouth and by letter) were taught by the Apostles and passed down to those they discipled?

*A good way to find out the TRADITIONS that were taught by both word of mouth and by letter is to not only study the Bible but to also study the writings of the Early Church Fathers. Question is, why are most Protestants reluctant to actually study the writings of the Early Church Fathers? Keeping in mind, that prior to the canonization of Sacred Scripture the one thing that fills in the gap of Church History between the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles to when we were given the canonized Sacred Scripture. That 400 to 500 year gap in Churches History of receiving letters and being taught by word of mouth is found within the writings of the Early Church Fathers. *

Why do some people believe the Catholic Church has pagan roots?

Because such people who have a poor knowledge of Church History, such people poorly Catechised, and such people who know nothing about the Catholic Church are quick to believe the anti-Catholic propaganda before actually properly researching Church History. I know, because I’ve been there.

 

[slh3016]

**
Because such people who have a poor knowledge of Church History, such people poorly Catechised, and such people who know nothing about the Catholic Church are quick to believe the anti-Catholic propaganda before actually properly researching Church History. I know, because I’ve been there.**

:clapping: These are the EXACT issues that DH and I have struggled with since we have learned more about Catholicism. It makes us deeply angry that we were never taught about the Early Church Fathers, history of the Church, and fed a lot of propaganda against the Catholic Church. It also makes us worry about those who never even bother to read up on these things when such a wealth of information is literally at our fingertips in this internet age and it makes us even more worried for those who left the Catholic Church after being sold a bill of goods containing misinformation, OSAS doctrine, etc. I have a few friends who this happened to.

 

[epostle]

• 500 years of anti-Catholic propaganda and misrepresentation
• historical revisionism
• hundreds of professional anti-Catholic “bible-Christians” and organizations promoting hate
• millions, if not billions, of web pages loaded with lies
• ignorance and stupidity
• insecurity, thus the need to grab any kind of perceived moral higher ground
• 96% of major news outlets are owned by 6 corporations and they are at war with the Church

That’s why other faiths believe we have pagan roots, along with the usual anti-Catholic drivel.

John 15:19-21 – If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.

 

[Ignatius]

.It beongs to no one except those who read it or here it and follow it’s Truth .
The gospel writers were not Catholics.

Actually, the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts were written by Gentiles. Jesus Christ only founded one Church and all of the authors were in that Church (the epithet Roman Catholic was invented by Anti-Catholics in the 16th century). The Church preceeded the New Testament by at least a couple of generations (c A.D. 55). So the Church Came first and the Holy Spirit used The Church to deliver and hand down the New Testament Scriptures.for 15 centuries before the Protestants brought division and desertion.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The gospel writers were not Catholics, but Jews and so were Paul and all the Apostles and disciples .Not a Roman Catholic among them.

Wrong.

The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as “the Way” (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those individuals who followed Christ began to be called “Christians” beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26). As early as 107 A.D., those same individuals referred to themselves collectively as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote:

You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery (priest) as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])

Notice that Ignatius does not take pains to introduce the term “Catholic Church”; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. In other words, the Christian assembly was calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century. John, the beloved disciple, may have thought of himself as a member of the Catholic Church!

The Catholic Church began with Peter and the Apostles and continued without interruption or cessation through their disciples (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, etc.) down to the present day. As a side note, it appears that the believers in Antioch may have coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church” – terms they used to describe the one body of believers in Christ.

 

[carmenp1]

I’m truly sorry if you felt insulted or ridiculed or humiliate you… in any way, I can assure you that’s not our intention. We are and have been responding by challenging your belief about Catholicism having pagan roots.

Lots of people say God taught them. Mohummad said that, Joseph Smith said that, Chareles Taze Tussle said that. The claim “God taught me” doesn’t validate that what is being said is true. There has to me more then “God taught me” to validate an opinion or an interpretation of Sacred Scripture. However that would be a topic for the thread called “What’s Your Authority” not with a discussion Catholicism and the claims some people have about Catholicism having pagan roots. Many people claim the Catholic faith began with Constantine. There is substantial evidence that proves the Catholic Faith was established by Jesus and His Apostles and carried on through the teachings of the Early Church Father

You misunderstand what I mean when I say God taught me and helped me. I would like to be allowed to clarify as you have compared my statement to some figures who are founders of a cult despite it being OT.

One eg. of help. I was driving from Hobart back to Launceston after a church event. I had my disabled son, and 2 daughters in the car, primary school age. It was after midnight. I was halfway home. It’s all bushland, the main road winding and very hilly, very isolated. I was approaching the crest of a hill. Like a still small voice, God spoke to me and said “what would you do if you became stranded out here in the middle of nowhere?”. I replied " I would pray to You, and You would help me."

I reach the top of the hill and I had very little time to react. A huge kangaroo was standing in the middle of the road facing right. I swerved left but he turned left too. My car hit it on my right front bumper. I kept driving but something was rubbing against the front tyre. I stopped. Found the front mud guard was pressed against the tyre making my car undriveable. I got a tyre lever from the boot. But the guard was too hard, it was not going to budge.

Now, I became frantic. I cried out to God. “Don’t let anyone stop! You have to help me. I don’t want anyone to stop!”. We were in a very vulnerable position. My girls were so young. I worried for their safety.

I kept telling God I wanted Him to help me. I tried the tyre leaver again. This time, as soon as it touched the guard, the guard popped. It popped before I could put pressure on it. The front guard wasn’t pressed against the tyre and I could drive home.

As I was about to get back in the car, another couple from church stopped and asked me if I was OK. I thought wow, look what God has just done. I said yes I am OK now. I was so lost in awe of what God did, I didn’t tell them then what had happened. But I told them at church the next day.

This church unbeknownst to me was a cult. I had given up everything because of their very dominating and controlling methods to keep everyone where they wanted, doing what they wanted. Now, I know why God helped me in this way. To survive with my faith intact when He took me out of this cult. If God hadn’t used all my bad experiences to get me to depend on Him alone, I would not have survived. I would have been suicidal realizing the full extent of their betrayal of my trust. I lost my husband, my home, my family, finances, lived in isolation and desperate loneliness for 13 years in a place I hated vehemently.

Your comparison to my statement that God helped, was so far from what really happened, it demanded clarification and I feel I should be permitted to respond directly in order for my response to make sense. It needed to be linked to your statement to make sense.

This is what I meant by Who taught me.

Also I want to clarify that I do believe God saves people who go to a Catholic Church.
I also believe that I am a Christian first, not a denomination. I am part of the body of Christ, the church. I am not for Paul or for so and so…I am for Christ. And as a part of His church I am a fellow believer with anyone who calls Christ Lord.

It is sad for me that I have been caught up in so much controversy. If I believe erroneously that the catholic church has historic links to paganism, and I am unconvinced by this forum, leave me in God’s hands. He is able to teach me and never fails to work in my life. I am a work in progress. I must also leave those who have disagreed with what I have said, to God.

He knows how to instruct and councel with wounds that once healed, bring about a righteousness that only He can bring into someone’s life.
Carmen

 

[SjMelnychuk]

You misunderstand what I mean when I say God taught me…

This church unbeknownst to me was a cult. I had given up everything because of their very dominating and controlling methods to keep everyone where they wanted, doing what they wanted. Now, I know why God helped me in this way. To survive with my faith intact when He took me out of this cult. If God hadn’t used all my bad experiences to get me to depend on Him alone, I would not have survived. I would have been suicidal realizing the full extent of their betrayal of my trust. I lost my husband, my home, my family, finances, lived in isolation and desperate loneliness for 13 years in a place I hated vehemently.

Your comparison to my statement that God helped, was so far from what really happened, it demanded clarification and I feel I should be permitted to respond directly in order for my response to make sense. It needed to be linked to your statement to make sense.

This is what I meant by Who taught me.

Also I want to clarify that I do believe God saves people who go to a Catholic Church.
I also believe that I am a Christian first, not a denomination. I am part of the body of Christ, the church. I am not for Paul or for so and so…I am for Christ. And as a part of His church I am a fellow believer with anyone who calls Christ Lord.

It is sad for me that I have been caught up in so much controversy. If I believe erroneously that the catholic church has historic links to paganism, and I am unconvinced by this forum, leave me in God’s hands. He is able to teach me and never fails to work in my life. I am a work in progress. I must also leave those who have disagreed with what I have said, to God.

He knows how to instruct and councel with wounds that once healed, bring about a righteousness that only He can bring into someone’s life.
Carmen

Thanks for the clarification. I don’t deny that God taught you but pointing out the fact that when people are deceived they don’t know it but rather believe they’re in truth and hearing from God. People won’t remain in a place if they are knowingly deceived.

Anti-Catholic beliefs are based on lies easily debunked. The only question remains are if people are willing to do the research.

Another thing, I’m glad you are no longer part of that controlling cult and learning to depend on God is a good thing but also, God created us for relationship and we cannot be part of the Church and avoid community. The way God intended is for us to be inter-dependant like a body is inter-dependant …the hands need the feet but what good are feet if there are no hands? There is much need for community as there is for solitude but God never intended for us to be a lone ranger but even the lone ranger had a trusted friend… But inter-dependance is far from a controlling environment.

Anyways, the comparison I made was on purpose. Like I said, I don’t deny God taught you and I believe that God will teach various people caught in cults too … Who am I to judge anybody? However, my point is, how do we know our interpretation of Sacred Scripture is right? And the final question, what stops you from researching the Early Church Fathers?

 

[carmenp1]

Another thing, I’m glad you are no longer part of that controlling cult and learning to depend on God is a good thing but also, God created us for relationship and we cannot be part of the Church and avoid community. The way God intended is for us to be inter-dependant like a body is inter-dependant …the hands need the feet but what good are feet if there are no hands? There is much need for community as there is for solitude but God never intended for us to be a lone ranger but even the lone ranger had a trusted friend… But inter-dependance is far from a controlling environment.

I agree that God never intended for us to be lone rangers. A lot of families left after I left. Recovery from the destruction of trust, even trust in my own judgment was so shaken it took years to overcome. The pastor and his wife who replaced our godly pastor gradually introduced more and more restrictions on us. I was very involved in the Church. I had ministry. The loneliness was as a single mother with relationships with church members only. No family in Launceston.

It has taken years to become involved in the church we go to. I am armed with a critical lesson. People can and do hurt you but it’s God I trust implicitly.

Anyways, the comparison I made was on purpose. Like I said, I don’t deny God taught you and I believe that God will teach various people caught in cults too … Who am I to judge anybody? However, my point is, how do we know our interpretation of Sacred Scripture is right? And the final question, what stops you from researching the Early Church Fathers?

In answer to your question, how do we know our interpretation of scripture is right? I find it is not possible for me as a lay person to know for certain I have the understanding God intended for all scripture. However, there is scripture that is so straightforward, God’s instructions and intended outcome are easy to understand and as I have put faith in those scriptures, they become a reality in my life as I obey Him.

What God says He will bring about in His word I see happening in my life when I have put my faith in His word. There are so many scriptures, promises He makes to us, that I believed and saw God honor my trust in His word eg
Faith Eph 6:16, Heb 11:6, Luke 1:37,

Fatherless PS 10:14, Prov 22:22, PS 146:9, Deut 10:18,

Fear 2Tim 1:7, Is 41:9, Prov 29:25, Prov 3:25, 1Sam 17, Ps 91, PS 56:3,

Foes Is 54:17, Jer 1:8 (God gave me this one months before my husband attempted to take my girls to Thailand). 2Cor 12:9, Ps 61, Grace Ps 84:11, 2Cor 12:9, Eph 1:3-6, God’s deliverance Ps 28, John 8:36, Col 2:11, Ps 27 …I would have lost heart (one of many scriptures God gave me to encourage me when all seemed too difficult to bear.

Depression Prov 12:25, from my diary 9/3/94 Is 63:8 God gave me this when I was really down.

I am not suggesting that God answered every prayer. Or every scripture I incorporated in my prayer life resulted in a tangible outcome. My circumstances created fear of my husband who was ruthless, fear of how do I keep a roof over our heads. I needed God desperately. I needed to build my faith in God. God used His Word to encourage me, build my trust in Him and teach me He was with me, was protecting me.

What He did was walk me through those problems. Reading my bible and prayer were the ways God kept me going. The other way, He helped me was by warning me. Eg. On 31/5/94 during morning prayer He warned me I was going to get a Child Support application from my husband to reduce his payments, God said don’t worry because he won’t get it. Then there was a knock at the door. He really helped me face yet another problem.

When I was having to leave the church, He warned me what they were going to do. So when I was informed I was no longer allowed to do my ministry (cleaning church) I already knew. Just before she walked in to tell me. God said “they are going to take your ministry”. I needed all of this. It confirmed I was right to go against what they had been forcing on the church. God was taking me out of the church. So I could expect that He had a plan for the future. Leaving the church meant we had no one.

To your last question, if you can give me a good source I can go to for information on the Early church, I will do some research.
Carmen

 

[SjMelnychuk]

In answer to your question, how do we know our interpretation of scripture is right? I find it is not possible for me as a lay person to know for certain I have the understanding God intended for all scripture. However, there is scripture that is so straightforward, God’s instructions and intended outcome are easy to understand and as I have put faith in those scriptures, they become a reality in my life as I obey Him.

What God says He will bring about in His word I see happening in my life when I have put my faith in His word. There are so many scriptures, promises He makes to us, that I believed and saw God honor my trust in His word eg
Faith Eph 6:16, Heb 11:6, Luke 1:37,

Fatherless PS 10:14, Prov 22:22, PS 146:9, Deut 10:18,

Fear 2Tim 1:7, Is 41:9, Prov 29:25, Prov 3:25, 1Sam 17, Ps 91, PS 56:3,

Foes Is 54:17, Jer 1:8 (God gave me this one months before my husband attempted to take my girls to Thailand). 2Cor 12:9, Ps 61, Grace Ps 84:11, 2Cor 12:9, Eph 1:3-6, God’s deliverance Ps 28, John 8:36, Col 2:11, Ps 27 …I would have lost heart (one of many scriptures God gave me to encourage me when all seemed too difficult to bear.

Depression Prov 12:25, from my diary 9/3/94 Is 63:8 God gave me this when I was really down.

I am not suggesting that God answered every prayer. Or every scripture I incorporated in my prayer life resulted in a tangible outcome. My circumstances created fear of my husband who was ruthless, fear of how do I keep a roof over our heads. I needed God desperately. I needed to build my faith in God. God used His Word to encourage me, build my trust in Him and teach me He was with me, was protecting me.

What He did was walk me through those problems. Reading my bible and prayer were the ways God kept me going. The other way, He helped me was by warning me. Eg. On 31/5/94 during morning prayer He warned me I was going to get a Child Support application from my husband to reduce his payments, God said don’t worry because he won’t get it. Then there was a knock at the door. He really helped me face yet another problem.

When I was having to leave the church, He warned me what they were going to do. So when I was informed I was no longer allowed to do my ministry (cleaning church) I already knew. Just before she walked in to tell me. God said “they are going to take your ministry”. I needed all of this. It confirmed I was right to go against what they had been forcing on the church. God was taking me out of the church. So I could expect that He had a plan for the future. Leaving the church meant we had no one.

To your last question, if you can give me a good source I can go to for information on the Early church, I will do some research.
Carmen

I’ll get back to you on that. I haven’t read much of the Early Church Fathers myself but everything I read has been insightful. Perhaps other Catholics can post links or resources to learn more? I’m at work currently but when I get home I’ll give you what information I have.

The writings of the Early Church Fathers can be a complicated read but well worth it. Anyways. I’ll get back to you with that.

Question for ya… Where in the bible does it tell us to ONLY trust, and rely on the bible for our faith and life?

 

[Dorothy]

In answer to your question, how do we know our interpretation of scripture is right? I find it is not possible for me as a lay person to know for certain I have the understanding God intended for all scripture. However, there is scripture that is so straightforward, God’s instructions and intended outcome are easy to understand and as I have put faith in those scriptures, they become a reality in my life as I obey Him.

What God says He will bring about in His word I see happening in my life when I have put my faith in His word. There are so many scriptures, promises He makes to us, that I believed and saw God honor my trust in His word eg
Faith Eph 6:16, Heb 11:6, Luke 1:37,

Fatherless PS 10:14, Prov 22:22, PS 146:9, Deut 10:18,

Fear 2Tim 1:7, Is 41:9, Prov 29:25, Prov 3:25, 1Sam 17, Ps 91, PS 56:3,

Foes Is 54:17, Jer 1:8 (God gave me this one months before my husband attempted to take my girls to Thailand). 2Cor 12:9, Ps 61, Grace Ps 84:11, 2Cor 12:9, Eph 1:3-6, God’s deliverance Ps 28, John 8:36, Col 2:11, Ps 27 …I would have lost heart (one of many scriptures God gave me to encourage me when all seemed too difficult to bear.

Depression Prov 12:25, from my diary 9/3/94 Is 63:8 God gave me this when I was really down.

I am not suggesting that God answered every prayer. Or every scripture I incorporated in my prayer life resulted in a tangible outcome. My circumstances created fear of my husband who was ruthless, fear of how do I keep a roof over our heads. I needed God desperately. I needed to build my faith in God. God used His Word to encourage me, build my trust in Him and teach me He was with me, was protecting me.

What He did was walk me through those problems. Reading my bible and prayer were the ways God kept me going. The other way, He helped me was by warning me. Eg. On 31/5/94 during morning prayer He warned me I was going to get a Child Support application from my husband to reduce his payments, God said don’t worry because he won’t get it. Then there was a knock at the door. He really helped me face yet another problem.

When I was having to leave the church, He warned me what they were going to do. So when I was informed I was no longer allowed to do my ministry (cleaning church) I already knew. Just before she walked in to tell me. God said “they are going to take your ministry”. I needed all of this. It confirmed I was right to go against what they had been forcing on the church. God was taking me out of the church. So I could expect that He had a plan for the future. Leaving the church meant we had no one.

To your last question, if you can give me a good source I can go to for information on the Early church, I will do some research.
Carmen

Carmen,

Thank you for sharing and for your patience.

You may find this information on the early Church interesting:

silouanthompson.net/library/early-church/ignatius/

Peace in Jesus,

Dorothy

 

[SjMelnychuk]

And if you are still interested you can find copies of the writings of the Early Church Fathers by following the link below:

catholiccompany.com/early-church-fathers-c312/?aid=none&gclid=COOgy6mCn8QCFYeTfgodVyoAtQ