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Pious_Redeemer
Guest
Why are babies being baptised? Why not do it, like in the case of Jesus, when they are adults, so they can make a well-considered personal choice wether they want to belong to our Church or not?
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Pious Redeemer:
Since the Church teaches the Necessity of Baptism for Salvation as an article of Faith, based on the Scripture passage in John 3:5-6, that no unbaptized person can enter the kingdom. Why take a chance that a child may not make it to adulthood and die before receiving Baptism?
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Pious_Redeemer
Guest
You’re right about that, thanks!
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
Why not obey Jesus - Matthew 19:13-14
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Scott_Waddell
Guest
Also think Old Testament. A boy child only eight days old can not make a well-considered personal choice, and yet they were admitted into Abraham’s covenant by circumcision.
Scott
Scott
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RPC717
Guest
Scott Waddell:
Exactly - and baptism is the new circumcision.
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Nota_Bene
Guest
Definately better to follow the Catholic Church and the Bible rather than some off the wall 16th century (or later) Protestant tehology:
Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, with her household, she besought us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once, with all his family.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with all his household; and many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.
1 Corinthians 1:16 (I did baptize also the household of Steph’anas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.)
Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, with her household, she besought us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.
Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once, with all his family.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with all his household; and many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.
1 Corinthians 1:16 (I did baptize also the household of Steph’anas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.)
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RPC717
Guest
Besides, it’s a lot better to have the priest do it rather than the plumber. :tiphat:
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Pious_Redeemer
Guest
My original question was why people aren’t baptised when they are adults and can make a true, deliberate choice to belong to our Church and uphold her principles. Many babies who are baptised don’t go to Mass or uphold the principles of our Catholic Church when they become adults.
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Scott_Waddell
Guest
Pious Redeemer:
Scott
True, and adults who get baptised often “backslide” into their own old ways. As there is no guarantee either way, it doesn’t really bear on whether to baptise them as infants or adults. The parents promise to instruct the baby in the faith when of appropriate age. The adult promises (in a way) to instruct himself.
Scott
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Nota_Bene
Guest
Pious Redeemer:
Using the logic you suggest, why would kids ever be taken to church on Sundays? Wouldn’t it make more sense to visit mosques, synogogues and different churches each week so a child could eventually make a “well-considered personal choice?” Perhaps it would be better not to visit anything on Sunday?
Just a quick observation. It is a man-made tradition to suggest that the Sacrament of Baptism requires the approval of the person being baptised for the sacrament to be valid. Baptism can never hurt.
Using the logic you suggest, why would kids ever be taken to church on Sundays? Wouldn’t it make more sense to visit mosques, synogogues and different churches each week so a child could eventually make a “well-considered personal choice?” Perhaps it would be better not to visit anything on Sunday?
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dumspirospero
Guest
Pious…you are looking at Baptism from a Protestant point of view…as Catholics, we believe “In one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins”, i.e. Baptism washes away Original Sin from our souls, that is a result of Adam & Eve. Due to the sins of Adam & Eve, all mankind has inherited original sin, and at Baptism, original sin is washed away and we become members of the Mystical Body of Christ. Baptism is necessary for one to enter into heaven…now remember, there are more than one type of Baptism, such as Baptism by desire, etc. With that said, as Catholics, we have Confirmation, which we do as adults and it is a public profession of our faith and a public acceptance of the Church and all of its teachings.
Pious Redeemer:
Pious Redeemer:
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RPC717
Guest
Pious Redeemer:
We normally time Confirmation to look like a profession of faith, but it is also a Holy Sacrament; babies can be confirmed as well.
Baptism is a Holy Sacrament, not a profession of faith. Baptism washes all sin from the soul and forever marks us children of God, giving us His grace to help us live Christian lives. We present our children for baptism (sound familiar?) so that they may be saved, and so that they may grow from the youngest age in His image. It is a supernatural act, perfectly suitable for any human being, not merely something we do by choice to show off that we believe now.
We normally time Confirmation to look like a profession of faith, but it is also a Holy Sacrament; babies can be confirmed as well.
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Pious_Redeemer
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Dumspirospero wrote:
Well, to be honest, I’ve never met or spoken to a Protestant as far as I know of. In Belgium, 99% of our people are Catholic. That means baptised. In reality, churches are getting more and more empty … as if they were the only remains of a doomed religion…
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caroljm36
Guest
What I heard (albeit in RCIA so maybe bogus) was that originally the Church did not baptize babies and wanted them to make their own conscious choice. But as parents realized the implications of this they started to demand infant baptism. Perhaps the theology had also changed.
Anyone know if there’s any truth to this?
Anyone know if there’s any truth to this?
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Katholikos
Guest
RCIA is a source of heresy and misinformation. Many know-nothing laypeople volunteer to teach, and the shortage of priests allows it. The untrained should not be permitted to teach – period, exclamation mark. RCIA should be taught from the Catechism of the Catholic Church or other official Church documents. Teachers should stop giving their personal (and ignorant) opinions.
Priests baptize babies to remove Original Sin and make them children of God and members of the Catholic Church. Baptism replaced circumcision as the rite of initiation into the New Israel, the People of God under the New Covenant – the Catholic Church. Circumcision was most assuredly administered to babies.
Catechism of the Catholic Church 1280 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.
CCC 1282 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony of this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.
The Early Church Fathers give witness to the baptism of infants and children and say that the practice was “learned from the Apostles.” Here’s an article that quotes the ECF’s:
bringyou.to/apologetics/a26.htm
According to this article, Polycarp, Catholic Bishop of Smyna (b. 69?), was baptized as an infant, perhaps by St. John himself.
My blood boils every time I hear what passes for Catholic “teaching” in RCIA classes.
JMJ Jay
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Franze
Guest
Pious Redeemer:
Pious, why do you think that the situation in Belgium is that?, there are any hope?, greetings
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gardenswithkids
Guest
Nota Bene:
Priests baptize babies because they love them.
We share our faith with our children because God freely shares it with us.
I believe salvation is a free gift from God that we can not earn, (but we can loose it, hence we need to co-operate with the works God has planned for us to do.)
Caroljm36 asked about something about the early church not baptizing babies. I learned that some parents didn’t baptize their children because anyone can baptize, but only a priest can hear confession. So, fearing their child may fall into sin after baptism and die in the state of mortal sin, they postponed baptism. That practice wasn’t officially encourged. Those who point out that to dismiss infant baptism should note the importance those early Christians placed on confessing mortal sins to a priest.
Well said.
Priests baptize babies because they love them.
We share our faith with our children because God freely shares it with us.
I believe salvation is a free gift from God that we can not earn, (but we can loose it, hence we need to co-operate with the works God has planned for us to do.)
Caroljm36 asked about something about the early church not baptizing babies. I learned that some parents didn’t baptize their children because anyone can baptize, but only a priest can hear confession. So, fearing their child may fall into sin after baptism and die in the state of mortal sin, they postponed baptism. That practice wasn’t officially encourged. Those who point out that to dismiss infant baptism should note the importance those early Christians placed on confessing mortal sins to a priest.
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Pious_Redeemer
Guest
Well, the people who attend the Mass every sunday are not many, and quite old too. Sooner or later, all of them will leave time and step into the Lords eternity, and what will happen then? Youngsters (except for myself) aren’t interested in faith anymore.
Granted, on Church holidays like Christmas and Easter, our church is overcrowded. But I think this is because it’s tradition to go to Mass during these days. And the following sunday, the churches are empty again.
On top of that, I believe last year we had 7 new Callings for the Priesthood. Only seven candidates to become a priest! Our priest f.e. is responsable now for 3 villages because there were no priests left to replace the former ones after they had passed away in those 2 villages.
I guess this is a common situation in many European countries. I am really, REALLY surprised that Americans have so much faith! You wouldn’t tell that by the movies and ‘bold and the beautiful’ immoral series that we get to see overhere. But being on this board has opened my eyes, coming in contact with real Americans, not with ‘sleeping arounders’ like a Ridge Forrester f.e.
I hope the situation in Belgium turnes around!
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