Why do protestants go to church?

[anodos]

This is what Article X of the Augsburg Confession states on the Holy Supper:
54 Article X has been approved, in which we confess the following: We believe that in the Lord’s Supper Christ’s body and blood are truly and substantially present and are truly administered with those things that are seen (bread and wine) to those who receive the Sacrament. We constantly defend this belief, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered. Since Paul says, “The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Corinthians 10:16), it would follow that if the Lord’s body were not truly present, the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of Christ’s spirit. 55 We have determined that not only the Roman Church affirms Christ’s bodily presence. The Greek Church also now believes, and formerly believed, the same. Their canon of the Mass testifies to this. In the canon the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed and become Christ’s very body. Vulgarius, who does not seem to be an unimportant writer to us, says clearly that “bread is not a mere figure, but is truly changed into flesh.” 56 There is a long commentary by Cyril on John 15, in which he teaches that Christ is bodily offered to us in the Supper. For he says:
Nevertheless, we do not deny that we are joined spiritually to Christ by true faith and sincere love. But that we have no way of connection with Him, according to the flesh, this indeed we entirely deny. We say this idea is completely foreign to the divine Scriptures. For who has doubted that Christ is in this manner a vine, and we the branches, deriving life for ourselves from this? Hear Paul saying, “For you are all one in Christ Jesus; so we, though many, are one body in Christ; for we all partake of the one bread” (Galatians 3:28; Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 10:17). Does he perhaps think that the virtue of the mystical benediction is unknown to us? Since this is in us, does it not also, by the communication of Christ’s flesh, cause Christ to dwell in us bodily? And a little after: Therefore, we must consider that Christ is in us not only according to the habit, which we call love, but also by natural participation.
57 We have cited these testimonies, not to undertake a discussion here about this subject, for His Imperial Majesty does not disapprove of this article. But we cite them so that all who read them may more clearly discern that we defend the doctrine received in the entire Church. In the Lord’s Supper, Christ’s body and blood are truly and actually present. They are truly administered with those things that are seen, bread and wine. And we speak of the presence of the living Christ, for we know that “death no longer has dominion over Him” (Romans 6:9).

This is interesting. I had been taught (not only from Catholic sources, but from Protestant sources as well), that the Lutheran concept of communion was that Christ was truly present “within” or “alongside” the bread and wine, but I did not realize there was such great emphasis on this. (Sorry, I was raised somewhere in between Calvinist and Nazarene, so Real Presence of any kind is still a ‘novel’ idea to me.) This article seems to affirm that; am I correct in this? That Christ is truly present WITH the visible articles of bread and wine? I think that the Catholic version differs slightly, in that when Christ is truly present, there is no longer bread or wine, only the “accidental appearance” of such.

(Sorry if this conversation ought to be taking place in another thread.)

 

[JonNC]

I agree with you on apostolic succesion. Lutherans afaik don’t claim it, and afaik as well most Lutherans have no bishops. The few that do are in Sweden.

And other parts of northern Europe, as well. In addition, some Lutherans (ELCA most notably), have reclaimed it through Anglican “Dutch touch” lines.

BTW, Andrew I appreciate your willingness here to defend what I believe is a necessary practice, and that is not to tell others what they blelieve. I also appreciate Trevor’s graciousness in accepting the my explanation on what Lutherans actually believe. A big to both of you.

Jon

 

[JRRTFAN]

Lutherans have three Sacraments: Baptism, Absolution and the Lord’s Supper, the rest that RCC has are considered as rites.
The main reason to go to church each Sunday is to be fed by Christ by His Word read and preached, by His forgiveness of sins in Absolution and in the Holy Supper where we eat His Body and drink His Blood in the bread and wine for the forgiveness of sins.

One of the things I have learned, but don’t practice enough is making sure were talking the same language!

By sacrament Catholic persons mean (In the Baltimore Catechism parlance) an outward sign, instituted by Christ to give grace.

Absent a Sacramental priesthood there is no one to confect the Eucharist or absolution. Only Baptism and Matrimony can be efficaciously performed by the non ordained. I think if you ask your pastor whether Orders is a Lutheran sacrament he will say it is not. Martin Luther (a relative of mine, by the way, denied that it was.)

So are we speaking the same language? How would a Lutheran define a sacrament?

 

[JonNC]

One of the things I have learned, but don’t practice enough is making sure were talking the same language!

By sacrament Catholic persons mean (In the Baltimore Catechism parlance) an outward sign, instituted by Christ to give grace.

Absent a Sacramental priesthood there is no one to confect the Eucharist or absolution. Only Baptism and Matrimony can be efficaciously performed by the non ordained. I think if you ask your pastor whether Orders is a Lutheran sacrament he will say it is not. Martin Luther (a relative of mine, by the way, denied that it was.)

So are we speaking the same language? How would a Lutheran define a sacrament?

In the narrow sense, Lutherans view sacrament as:
•Commanded or instituted by Christ;
•A promise of grace, and;
•Accompanied by an earthly element

While Lutherans would not narrowly define Orders as a sacrament, as defined above, certainly we consider it a holy rite.

Jon

 

[JRRTFAN]

In the narrow sense, Lutherans view sacrament as:
•Commanded or instituted by Christ;
•A promise of grace, and;
•Accompanied by an earthly element

While Lutherans would not narrowly define Orders as a sacrament, as defined above, certainly we consider it a holy rite.

Jon

Given that, then, how do you get to the point where the communion service is anything but a nice service? Jesus specifically had certain persons (apostles) to who he made the command to “do this”.

I went to a community called Associate Reformed Presbyterian on Sunday (my Protestant teenager was playing piano for them). It was a nice service (and a pretty good sermon!). They had a communion service and the Pastor said : “This is more than just a nice service.” (in reference to the communion). But in my mind I’m asking myself - well ===what is it then? It’s not what we Catholics say - but it’s not just a service - so what is it? I was baffled and remain so, but I did tell the guy I liked his sermon.

I’ve heard about the same thing at the local mega-church: “This is so much more than just a memorial.” OK, can you define what that means for me?

 

[ltwin]

“This is so much more than just a memorial.” OK, can you define what that means for me?

I think every answer you get will be slightly different. I’m sure I wouldn’t state it in the same terms as a Lutheran or Anglican would. To me, this is a beautiful description of the Lord’s Supper:

We believe in the commemoration and observing of the Lord’s supper by the sacred
use of the broken bread, a precious type of the Bread of Life, even Jesus Christ,
whose body was broken for us; and by the juice of the vine, a blessed type which
should ever remind the participant of the shed blood of the Savior who is the true
vine of which His children are the branches; that this ordinance is a glorious rainbow
that spans the gulf of years between Calvary and the coming of the Lord, when in the
Father’s kingdom, He will partake anew with His children; and that the serving and
receiving of this blessed sacrament should be ever preceded by the most solemn
heart-searching, self-examination, forgiveness and love toward all men, that none
partake unworthily and drink condemnation to his own soul.

To me, just because Jesus is not physically present in the elements does not mean that it is simply a memorial. Because of what it siginifies and reenacts and because of who is present spiritually, this is no simple meal. It is sacred and forever set apart. That is why one must not participate unworthily. It is a proclamation, and it is a prophecy. And what it symbolizes–that all who partake are partaking of Christ–is indeed a reality for all who truly come to him.

 

[JonNC]

Given that, then, how do you get to the point where the communion service is anything but a nice service? Jesus specifically had certain persons (apostles) to who he made the command to “do this”.

I went to a community called Associate Reformed Presbyterian on Sunday (my Protestant teenager was playing piano for them). It was a nice service (and a pretty good sermon!). They had a communion service and the Pastor said : “This is more than just a nice service.” (in reference to the communion). But in my mind I’m asking myself - well ===what is it then? ** It’s not what we Catholics say** - but it’s not just a service - so what is it? I was baffled and remain so, but I did tell the guy I liked his sermon.

I’ve heard about the same thing at the local mega-church: “This is so much more than just a memorial.” OK, can you define what that means for me?

Well, you’d have to ask them “what is it”. I think, in large measure, it is what Catholics say - it is His body and blood, given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins. The command to His disciples is given to the entire Church, just like the keys, the binding and loosing of sin, and Baptism. Instituted by Christ, with a promise of grace. It is the means of grace. It is the promise of Christ of grace that makes it more than just a nice service.

Jon

 

[JRRTFAN]

Well, you’d have to ask them “what is it”. I think, in large measure, it is what Catholics say - it is His body and blood, given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins. The command to His disciples is given to the entire Church, just like the keys, the binding and loosing of sin, and Baptism. Instituted by Christ, with a promise of grace. It is the means of grace. It is the promise of Christ of grace that makes it more than just a nice service.

Jon

But Jon, if it is waht Catholics say (in any measure) that say includes, of necessity, an ordained priesthood. We depart from each other in the specificity of the giving of the keys, which were not given to the disciples at all.

But I am going to allow this discussion to go fallow because I can tell you are a very nice guy and I get abrupt and you know what that leads to!

Keep on searching, Brother!

 

[JonNC]

=JRRTFAN;8890934]But Jon, if it is waht Catholics say (in any measure) that say includes, of necessity, an ordained priesthood. We depart from each other in the specificity of the giving of the keys, which were not given to the disciples at all.

Yes, my friend, this is a point of departure, as we view the keys as not limited to just St. Peter.

But I am going to allow this discussion to go fallow because I can tell you are a very nice guy and I get abrupt and you know what that leads to!

Not a problem.

Keep on searching, Brother!

His peace,

Jon

 

[Apostolic]

Personally, As an OFFICIAL TONGUE SPEAKING, SIN HATING, GOOD DOING, JESUS NAME BAPTIZING, PENTECOSTAL/APOSTOLIC, I Believe protestantism is just a rebellion of the catholic church! Martin Luther, who knew what he was talking about was correct but should have join apostolic instead of the protestant reformation, The POPE IS THE FALSE IDOL OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH Revelation 13:11 tells us so, just as all throughout the revelation book. from a Pentecostal side of the argument, the catholic church is corrupted with Graven images (# Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:3-5) and False Prophets relating to the religious superpower. YOU CALL HIM FATHER YOUR HOLINESS(THE POPE), I CALL HIM THE FALSE PROPHET(Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[JRRTFAN]

Personally, As an OFFICIAL TONGUE SPEAKING, SIN HATING, GOOD DOING, JESUS NAME BAPTIZING, PENTECOSTAL/APOSTOLIC, I Believe protestantism is just a rebellion of the catholic church! Martin Luther, who knew what he was talking about was correct but should have join apostolic instead of the protestant reformation, The POPE IS THE FALSE IDOL OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH Revelation 13:11 tells us so, just as all throughout the revelation book. from a Pentecostal side of the argument, the catholic church is corrupted with Graven images (# Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:3-5) and False Prophets relating to the religious superpower. YOU CALL HIM FATHER YOUR HOLINESS(THE POPE), I CALL HIM THE FALSE PROPHET(Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

A simply brilliant exposition of Biblical truth. I didn’t know there were that many Petecostal/Apostolic Churches in WIttenburg Germany in 1517. Learn something new every day! Thanks for bringing us up to speed on history and theology. In fact, you win the prize today. A brand new box of Crayolas and a Spider Man coloring book. Enjoy!

 

[anodos]

A simply brilliant exposition of Biblical truth. I didn’t know there were that many Petecostal/Apostolic Churches in WIttenburg Germany in 1517. Learn something new every day! Thanks for bringing us up to speed on history and theology. In fact, you win the prize today. A brand new box of Crayolas and a Spider Man coloring book. Enjoy!

But I wanted the crayolas.

 

[ltwin]

Personally, As an OFFICIAL TONGUE SPEAKING, SIN HATING, GOOD DOING, JESUS NAME BAPTIZING, PENTECOSTAL/APOSTOLIC, I Believe protestantism is just a rebellion of the catholic church! Martin Luther, who knew what he was talking about was correct but should have join apostolic instead of the protestant reformation, The POPE IS THE FALSE IDOL OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH Revelation 13:11 tells us so, just as all throughout the revelation book. from a Pentecostal side of the argument, the catholic church is corrupted with Graven images (# Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:3-5) and False Prophets relating to the religious superpower. YOU CALL HIM FATHER YOUR HOLINESS(THE POPE), I CALL HIM THE FALSE PROPHET(Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Listen Apostolic, I’m Pentecostal and you don’t speak for me. Please refrain from characterizing your beliefs as “from a Pentecostal side of the argument” as there isn’t really anything new about your argument. Its just a rehash of the same fundamentalist junk.

One more thing. Pentecostalism began in 1901 and 1906. Look up Parham and Seymour. The Holy Spirit has always been active in the Church, but don’t confuse our tradition which is a renewal of the Pentecostal dimension of the Church with those past movements and persons who were led by the Spirit. There were no “Pentecostals” as we know them today during the time of Martin Luther. Though I believe there have always been Christians who have shared our experience, they did not articulate it the way Pentecostals do today.

 

[1beleevr]

Why does anyone, Protestant, catholic, or whatever go to church? The apostles exhorted the brethren to congregate together(wherever) and share the Good News with those who were lost. There is strength in numbers, and fellowship is an important part of our Christian life. We were made for community. Salvation is not a one time and you’re done occurrence. It is a lifetime process. God is constantly shaping and perfecting you(although some believe that you should strive for perfection on this earth). And I am not aware of salvation being a repeatable event, so can you really lose it, once you have it? So, church would be like a refueling station, where we go to be renewed and revived, to share with our brothers and sisters in Christ!

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Troll sent to the Lake of Fire…
Carry on…

 

[Caliburn]

Jesus is the only person who has not sinned.

Some Catholics often call Mary the mother of God, but God does not have a mother, for God and Jesus already existed before Mary existed (Isaiah 43:10). Mary was not God’s mother, but simply a channel through which Jesus entered this physical world.

THE POPE
The Pope is a man Catholics have claimed is a mediator between God and mankind. But as it has been said Jesus is the only mediator between God and mankind (1 Timothy 2:5). Catholics also claim the Pope is the head of the Church on earth, but the Bible says Jesus is the head of the Church (Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 1:22, Colossians 2:9-10). We should not give to any man the honour that belongs to Jesus alone.

CONFESSION
It is often believed among Catholics that a certain group of people called priests, have the power and authority to forgive sins. So sins must be confessed to priests. But such beliefs are the opposite of what is found in the Bible, which says Jesus has the power to forgive sins (Matthew 9:6). Also, no human priest is a mediator between God and man. The Bible also teaches we can ask God ourselves for forgiveness, and He promises to forgive us and cleanse us (1 John 1:9). Peter also said in the Bible, that through Jesus name, whoever believes in Him will receive forgiveness of their sins (Acts 10:43). The Bible does not teach that today there should be a special class of people called priests, for God sees all Christians as priests (1 Peter 2:9).

PENANCE
the Bible does not say anything about penance, God does not demand such things for the forgiveness of sins. God’s forgiveness is a free gift we receive by turning away from our wrong ways and accepting it through believing in Jesus as our Lord (Galatians 2:16, Romans 1:17).

PURGATORY
This imaginary place keeps many Catholics in fear all their life, because they can never be sure of how long they will spend there. A fear of purgatory causes many Catholics to miss out on the joy and peace that comes from knowing Jesus has paid the full price for sin. Catholics often teach that time spent in purgatory can be reduced by gifts of money, the prayers of priests, and by doing other things. Through such teachings the Catholic Church has collected billions of dollars, making it one of the richest institutions in the world.

However nothing about purgatory can be found in the Bible. Jesus said in the Bible, that He who hears His word and believes in Him who sent Him, has everlasting life, and will not be judged, but has passed from death to life (John 5:24). The Bible also says God does not remember sins that have been forgiven (Hebrews 10:17). The Bible also says that once Christians die they will be present with God (2 Corinthians 5:8-9), there is no place in between.

INDULGENCES
Catholics also teach that the unpaid penalties can cause individuals to be punished in this life.
The whole concept of Indulgences goes against the Bible, which teaches that God’s Gift of life is free, for the whole punishment for all sin has been paid for by Jesus once and for all (Hebrews 10:10).

RITUALS
the kissing and bowing down to images and statues of Mary, Jesus, dead people and angels. The Bible says that is wrong, and such objects should not even be made (Exodus 20:4-5).

CONCLUSION
As a Protestant, I believe the Catholic belief system has complicated the simple Gospel message. I protest any religion that teaches that to receive spiritual salvation involves a lot of hard work. I believe we have eternal life when we put our faith in Jesus, as the Scripture says: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life” (John 3:36)

The Bible warns against those that seek to complicate and corrupt God’s simple plan of salvation (2 Corinthians 11:3). The simple truth is God’s gift of life has been fully paid by Jesus on the cross. We can receive it in this life by turning from our wrong ways and accepting Jesus as our Lord, it is not something we can get by doing good works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

So if you want to get right with God, you have to go to Jesus directly, not any Church, religious organization or human individual. Jesus said, come to me all you that labour and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28). We are not saved by belonging to a Church either Catholic or Protestant. There are only one kind of Christian, those that have made Jesus Lord of their life, and the simplest definition of a “true” Church is any group of people that is united by a shared love of Jesus Christ

 

[batman1973]

Oh, man. PRMerger’s gonna eat you alive posting that.