Why do Reformed keep saying this? I suspect this is deliberately deceiving to hide what Calvinism is!

[JacksonA]

"All who go to Hell go because of their own free will" -Steven Lawson. Lawson was close friends with RC Sproul for decades, and he has a PhD from a Reformed college.
According to Calvinism, not everyone is offered grace by God. That means when someone goes to Hell, it's ultimately due to them having inherited sin and having no way of being cleansed of sin since God never offered them grace. Since they never rejected grace nor chose to inherit sin, they aren't going to Hell due to any decision they made. At no point did they make a decision that resulted in them going to Hell, so it's very bizarre that Steven Lawson said this.

RC Sproul says it is justified for God to not offer someone grace because all humans are 'in rebellion' or 'broke the law'. An odd way of saying they inherited sin. When you think of words and phrases like 'rebellion' and 'broke the law' you think of a choice, a conscious act of defiance. Nobody chooses to inherit sin.

I suppose they say, "God is justified in not offering grace to someone He has created," as a way of saying there is nothing preventing God from doing so. OK, I'll give them that. Let's say God is capable of creating one human or a trillion human souls, and NOT offering any of them grace. God is capable of doing that.

That still doesn't answer the question, "Why would God create someone and not give them an opportunity to go to Heaven?" God does as He pleases. Psalm 115:3. By making humans so that they inherit sin, then not offering grace to those humans to be cleansed of sin, then sending them to Hell as punishment for having sin, God is directly making people be doomed with Hell as their inexorable fate.

If they announced these things all the time, that would make most people balk at Calvinism immediately. Demons want people to not repent... and so does the god of Calvinism. Demons rejoice when people fall into sin. Demons want humans to go to Hell... and so does the god of Calvinism! The implications of this are quite sickening.

John MacArthur, and John Calvin have all point-blank admitted that Calvinism means God creates people for the purpose of sending them to Hell because God gets pleasure from sending sinners to Hell. God hates humanity and wants humans in Hell. He doesn't want all to repent or to have faith. Yet Sproul, and Lawson didn't want to publicly admit these things.

1. God creates Jimmy.
2. Jimmy inherits sin.
3. God doesn't offer Jimmy grace to be cleansed of sin.
4. Jimmy dies.
5. God sends Jimmy to Hell as punishment for having sin.

"God doesn't offer Jimmy grace because Jimmy is in rebellion" equates to "God didn't offer Jimmy grace because Jimmy inherited sin."
That doesn't explain why God didn't offer Jimmy grace. Saying is justified for God to do this sounds like a way of saying God is capable of doing this, and there's nothing stopping God from doing it. Even if God is capable of this, that doesn't explain WHY God does this.

I'll assume it's merely because Sproul Sr and Lawson knew that most people would leave Calvinism if they realized how it makes God into a monster who is pleasured by people not repenting, which is also what demons want. People don't go to Hell due to their decisions. It's not their fault. Every time in the Bible where God complains about someone not repenting, God is for some reason whining that He Himself isn't offering someone grace to make it possible for them to repent? Why complain if you get glory sending the unrepented to Hell? If Judas had repented or not, God gets glory either way.

The average American would balk at such a thing, as they rightfully should. I therefore conclude that Steven Lawson and RC Sproul Sr deliberately lied or committed a deceit via omission in an attempt to hide Calvinism's true teachings. People don't go to Hell of their own free will, yet Lawson said the opposite. How is this not a deliberate lie to make Calvinism look fair?

Sproul Sr's quote makes it sound like God is merely apathetic to Jimmy. God ignores Jimmy and doesn't give Jimmy grace since He doesn't want to nor have to.
His son, Sproul Jr's quote is what John Calvin himself said, that God deliberate makes people be doomed. God is pleasured by humans not repenting and going to Hell.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Well done. Please keep your good commentaries coming.

 

[JacksonA]

Well done. Please keep your good commentaries coming.

So I was correct? Sproul and Lawson censored Calvinism to make it more marketable? They were so popular that Ligonier's success depended on them being liked by the public.

"It is justice for God to create Jimmy and not offer Jimmy grace" seems like a dodge. They're merely saying it's possible for God to do this. They don't want to explain in detail why God did that to Jimmy. Saying it's possible doesn't explain the motivation for doing this.

I've read online that people immediately leaving Calvinism after listening to Sproul's son, Sproul Jr openly say God creates people for the purpose of sending them to Hell. He also said God only gives people grace for His own glory. They said they were sickened by this. This would mean every time a devout Christian falls into hedonism, God ultimately gets glory from that! If Ninevah hadn't repented in Jonah, God would also be glorified by that! Jonah has a happy ending as it is, but Calvinists must admit the opposite would also be a happy ending.

Sproul Sr wrote the book, Reason to Believe, in which he sounds outright anti-Calvinist in it. This caused me massive confusion when I later saw Sproul on the Internet saying such horrible things. Similarly, Charles Spurgeon sounded anti-Calvinist in his later years, saying he wished God elected more people. But to be consistent, God is glorified electing fewer or no people! If nobody had faith, or if all of Jesus' disciples became like Judas, and if Paul hadn't have repented from his ways as Saul, God would be just as glorified.

Considering how most people don't repent, one must conclude God prefers nonrepentance as opposed to repentance if Calvinism is true.

Sproul Sr said babies are innocent when being aborted... yet later said babies are worse than rats and it was an insult to rats for Calvin to say babies are as depraved as rats.
Sproul Sr seemed like a demented liar. Babies going to Hell gives Calvi-god glory, and so do abortionists going to Hell. Nonrepentance is good since it gives Calvi-god more glory.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

So I was correct? Sproul and Lawson censored Calvinism to make it more marketable? They were so popular that Ligonier's success depended on them being liked by the public.

I cannot say. You know a whole lot more about the situation than I do (which isn't much). The only thing I would caution, is attempting to ferret out the internal dispositions of parties concerned. Whether anyone deliberately lied, or merely became so wedded to their own points of view that they could not see anything else, is something only they could know.

I really don't concern myself with what Calvinists think or don't think. They are outside of the historical tradition of the Church, and once a person takes that route, they are inevitably going to compound error upon error.

 

[JacksonA]

I cannot say. You know a whole lot more about the situation than I do (which isn't much). The only thing I would caution, is attempting to ferret out the internal dispositions of parties concerned. Whether anyone deliberately lied, or merely became so wedded to their own points of view that they could not see anything else, is something only they could know.

I really don't concern myself with what Calvinists think or don't think. They are outside of the historical tradition of the Church, and once a person takes that route, they are inevitably going to compound error upon error.

John MacArthur and RC Sproul both said humans have free will to choose... and that God must regenerate someone before they can have faith. They admit this violates the law of noncontradiciton.

Basically, free will exists and doesn't exist simultaneously.

RC Sproul Jr said sin is an attempt to overthrow God. He also said God created sin. So God is waging spiritual warfare against Himself?

Sproul Jr said God is glorified by people going to Hell or going to Heaven. Either way, God is glorified.

Yet Calvinists still complain about people disagreeing with them and not repenting, which means that they whine about God not regenerating them. They ignore Evanescent Grace, and they're all so certain they're the Elect because... they want to be. They subjectively judge themselves to determine they're the Elect.

Calvinism is nonsensical garbage. God regularly complains about people not repenting throughout the entire Bible. Why would God whine about people not repenting if they cannot and if God gets glory from it? John MacArthur admitted Calvinism contradicted Ezekiel 33:11 and other verses, but he said Calvinism must still be true somehow. Idiotic.

 

[Shulammite]

"All who go to Hell go because of their own free will" -Steven Lawson. Lawson was close friends with RC Sproul for decades, and he has a PhD from a Reformed college.
According to Calvinism, not everyone is offered grace by God. That means when someone goes to Hell, it's ultimately due to them having inherited sin and having no way of being cleansed of sin since God never offered them grace. Since they never rejected grace nor chose to inherit sin, they aren't going to Hell due to any decision they made. At no point did they make a decision that resulted in them going to Hell, so it's very bizarre that Steven Lawson said this.

Excellent post! I think many misconstrue omniscience among Protestants. Just because God knows the beginning and the end of something doesn't mean He made people for such a place deliberately. It simply means, He knows the outcome of personal choices, but desires all to choose good. Desiring all men to be saved. It is not an override of freewill; it is simply knowing what they will ultimately decide for themselves. For example, Romans 9:…22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— 24including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles?…

There is such a thing as "predestined". It simply means, if God does not have some, He would have none. It doesn't mean they do not sin or did not sin. It simply means, that certain who are predestined are first-fruits. Consider them wild cards in the deck of cards of life. They can trump all others and are here to bolster others, helping them realize their complete destiny in God. They are predestined and created to overthrow the works of the devil. However, they are humble. Not everyone who claims to be predestined elect, are. One knows this with one hundred percent certainty once they attain the victor's crown. Hence, why Paul also says, " I have not yet received my victor's crown but live as though I did" . Point is, live like you are predestined for truly you will know if you were in the end of the race.

And everyone today who claims to be predestined/elect, are not. Thinking you are and actually being is something that comes with full disclosure when you have run your race and won. Unfortunately, Protestants claim they know this with 100% certainty and tend to boast of an appointment that cannot be fully realized until the race is won. It is one thing to live as though you already won and another to arrogantly boast of winning a race you are still running. Predestined elect is found out at the end, not before. But live like you are. Be humble and stay close to God.

" Bore with great patience the vessels of wrath" I think this is where Protestants get tangled up. If God is bearing with vessels of wrath with great patience, He is, affording them the opportunity to repent. It isn't an act that takes away their free-will, rather, it is an attempt, to get them to use their free-will correctly. Even yet, with the evil they do, which is obviously also against the vessels of mercy, God always works things out for the good of those who love Him.

Vessels of wrath are also called goats-Matthew 25:31-46

Vessels of wrath, fulfill the actions of evil. Isaiah 45:7 has many variations depending on which bible you read. Those variations are synonyms. There can be multiple ways to say the same thing. In one translation it states " I make good and evil" for the unlearned this can cause stumbling blocks. Not that God is a stumbling block. I surmise though, many Calvinists misunderstand. I understand this version the same way I understand all the others. If God who is good, is the standard and makes the standard, then anything against Him (the standard), He calls- evil. Therefore, His standard makes anything other -evil. Hence, "I make evil"!
God Bless!

 

[JacksonA]

Vessels of wrath, fulfill the actions of evil. Isaiah 45:7 has many variations depending on which bible you read. Those variations are synonyms. There can be multiple ways to say the same thing. In one translation it states " I make good and evil" for the unlearned this can cause stumbling blocks. Not that God is a stumbling block. I surmise though, many Calvinists misunderstand. I understand this version the same way I understand all the others. If God who is good, is the standard and makes the standard, then anything against Him (the standard), He calls- evil. Therefore, His standard makes anything other -evil. Hence, "I make evil"!
God Bless!

I realized that Evanescent Grace easily debunks Calvinism. Calvinism depends on Total Inability. The only way for Total Inability to be true, is if God gives a fake grace to non-elect to temporarily force them to behave & believe identical to the Elect.

Learning about it was quite fun. It makes the god of Calvinism like Descartes' Malevolent god or Evil Demon.

Calvinists claim only the Elect are regenerated with Irresistible Grace (rape of the soul). Without this regeneration, one cannot possibly have faith. Non-elect are unable to choose to have faith. They don't have the free will to do so. Total Inability.

Yet think of all the people who do have faith, and even believe in Calvinism, get baptized, and believe they're the elect... only to years later become atheists!
That means those people were NOT the elect, yet still somehow had faith and behaved identical to the Elect, despite never receiving Saving Grace.

This means there are 2 types of Irresistible Grace given by Calvi-god. Saving Grace is given to the Elect to force them to have faith permanently. Evanescent Grace is given to some reprobates so that they temporarily have faith and even believe they're the Elect, but only temporarily.

Either Calvi-god gives Evanescent Grace to non-elect to make them temporarily think they're Elect... or it is in fact possible for people who end up in Hell to choose to have faith. The latter disproves Total Inability, as without Total Inability, all humans possess the ability to choose to have faith, including those who eventually end up as Goats on Judgement Day.
Calvinists cannot have that, so they must believe that Calvi-god dishes out an Evanescent Grace which allows reprobates to have faith.
"Regeneration precedes faith" is what Calvinists believe. Temporary regeneration precedes temporary faith, otherwise they must admit it's possible for non-elect to choose to have faith.

The god of Calvinism forces people to believe they're the Elect when they're not. Insanity. He forces people to have false beliefs. A deity of deception.

 

[Shulammite]

I realized that Evanescent Grace easily debunks Calvinism. Calvinism depends on Total Inability. The only way for Total Inability to be true, is if God gives a fake grace to non-elect to temporarily force them to behave & believe identical to the Elect.

Learning about it was quite fun. It makes the god of Calvinism like Descartes' Malevolent god or Evil Demon.

Calvinists claim only the Elect are regenerated with Irresistible Grace (rape of the soul). Without this regeneration, one cannot possibly have faith. Non-elect are unable to choose to have faith. They don't have the free will to do so. Total Inability.

Yet think of all the people who do have faith, and even believe in Calvinism, get baptized, and believe they're the elect... only to years later become atheists!
That means those people were NOT the elect, yet still somehow had faith and behaved identical to the Elect, despite never receiving Saving Grace.

This means there are 2 types of Irresistible Grace given by Calvi-god. Saving Grace is given to the Elect to force them to have faith permanently. Evanescent Grace is given to some reprobates so that they temporarily have faith and even believe they're the Elect, but only temporarily.

Either Calvi-god gives Evanescent Grace to non-elect to make them temporarily think they're Elect... or it is in fact possible for people who end up in Hell to choose to have faith. The latter disproves Total Inability, as without Total Inability, all humans possess the ability to choose to have faith, including those who eventually end up as Goats on Judgement Day.
Calvinists cannot have that, so they must believe that Calvi-god dishes out an Evanescent Grace which allows reprobates to have faith.
"Regeneration precedes faith" is what Calvinists believe. Temporary regeneration precedes temporary faith, otherwise they must admit it's possible for non-elect to choose to have faith.

The god of Calvinism forces people to believe they're the Elect when they're not. Insanity. He forces people to have false beliefs. A deity of deception.

Nice!

 

[JacksonA]

Nice!

I noticed that RC Sproul and other Calvinists really don't like to talk about Evanescent Grace. In fact, there are pastors with degrees from seminaries who have never even heard of it. It's literally a secret that they don't want people to find out about!

Evanescent Grace is essential for TULIP, and their axiom "Regeneration Precedes Faith" so they must believe it.

Calvinists' god made the true church go extinct.
Calvinists' god makes Calvinists disagree with each other.
Calvinists' god forces people to believe they're the Elect when they're not. He forces humans to believe in lies. What then is preventing this deity from forcing everyone including all Calvinists and the Bible's authors from believing in lies?

A malevolent god that forces humans to affirm lies! Insane. John Calvin invented a god that is just like Descartes' imagined Evil Demon. There is no logical reason to assume this god will be nice to you and not deceive you. He'd be pleasured deceiving everyone.

RC Sproul and Steven Lawson purposefully hid the realities of Reformed Theology. They wanted popularity and to make money. They committed the lie of omission.

 

[Shulammite]

What then is preventing this deity from forcing everyone including all Calvinists and the Bible's authors from believing in lies?

Ok I'll bite, because you thought you ate that! LOL! I have nothing else to do right now.

If I write a book and you translate it into a different language, how does that make you the author?

If I have many works scattered among people, I trusted them to and you go out, collect them and translate them to another language, that still doesn't make you or a particular group -the authors.

With that cleared up! Are you saying, God, who gives authority to the prophets and saints (the first to know ones-The Jews) who are the only ones who could write down what the Author says, could believe lies or even the Author Himself could? That is essentially what you said.

I mean, your denomination nor the Calvinist even existed when the Author breathed forth the scriptures. So, what " authors" are you talking about?

2 Timothy 3: 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

 

[Shulammite]

I noticed that RC Sproul and other Calvinists really don't like to talk about Evanescent Grace. In fact, there are pastors with degrees from seminaries who have never even heard of it. It's literally a secret that they don't want people to find out about!

Evanescent Grace is essential for TULIP, and their axiom "Regeneration Precedes Faith" so they must believe it.

Calvinists' god made the true church go extinct.
Calvinists' god makes Calvinists disagree with each other.
Calvinists' god forces people to believe they're the Elect when they're not. He forces humans to believe in lies. What then is preventing this deity from forcing everyone including all Calvinists and the Bible's authors from believing in lies?

A malevolent god that forces humans to affirm lies! Insane. John Calvin invented a god that is just like Descartes' imagined Evil Demon. There is no logical reason to assume this god will be nice to you and not deceive you. He'd be pleasured deceiving everyone.

RC Sproul and Steven Lawson purposefully hid the realities of Reformed Theology. They wanted popularity and to make money. They committed the lie of omission.

Matthew 10:16 “See, I am sending you out like sheep into the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

Some interpret this to mean; you can be deceptive as long as it is for a "good" intention. When that is not what it means. Like Moses who was trained in the wisdom of Egypt, it means- know what your enemy knows. Learn his craft that you may understand his serpent's tongue and practices but do not practice his craft nor use his tongue.

Sleight of hand and tongue is the means by which one corrupts. In increments and subtilties like a serpent- the teachings seem unassuming, even nonthreatening. I am good at catching little foxes that ruin the vineyard.

Over time, if subtilties are not nailed immediately, they grow into total corruption of the one, who has been indoctrinated via serpent subtilities which usurp God's position over His creation even land. One's mind becomes compromised. I am well verse concerning the subtilties of the serpent's seed.
Matthew 16:
beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

12Then they understood that He was not telling them to beware of the leaven used in bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees

"RC Sproul and Steven Lawson purposefully hid the realities of Reformed Theology. They wanted popularity and to make money. They committed the lie of omission."
And you essentially plagiarize the Word of God when you take credit as the Author when you simply compiled, copied/translated His work. You omit His authority and authorship! So, I will not be surprised at the claiming of mine either. Christ was clear- " If they persecute the Householder how much more the house, if they did it to Me, they will do it to you".

Having much study in Kabbalah and all the mystery religions, it makes me very keen on recognizing double speak-the serpent's tongue.

 

[JacksonA]

Matthew 10:16 “See, I am sending you out like sheep into the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

Some interpret this to mean; you can be deceptive as long as it is for a "good" intention. When that is not what it means. Like Moses who was trained in the wisdom of Egypt, it means- know what your enemy knows. Learn his craft that you may understand his serpent's tongue and practices but do not practice his craft nor use his tongue.

Sleight of hand and tongue is the means by which one corrupts. In increments and subtilties like a serpent- the teachings seem unassuming, even nonthreatening. I am good at catching little foxes that ruin the vineyard.

Over time, if subtilties are not nailed immediately, they grow into total corruption of the one, who has been indoctrinated via serpent subtilities which usurp God's position over His creation even land. One's mind becomes compromised. I am well verse concerning the subtilties of the serpent's seed.
Matthew 16:
beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

12Then they understood that He was not telling them to beware of the leaven used in bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees

"RC Sproul and Steven Lawson purposefully hid the realities of Reformed Theology. They wanted popularity and to make money. They committed the lie of omission."
And you essentially plagiarize the Word of God when you take credit as the Author when you simply compiled, copied/translated His work. You omit His authority and authorship! So, I will not be surprised at the claiming of mine either. Christ was clear- " If they persecute the Householder how much more the house, if they did it to Me, they will do it to you".

Having much study in Kabbalah and all the mystery religions, it makes me very keen on recognizing double speak-the serpent's tongue.

What are you talking about?

 

[JacksonA]

Well done. Please keep your good commentaries coming.

I've checked, and many others have noticed that Calvinists censor Calvinism so as to not turn people off. Ligonier Ministries would've suffered financially otherwise.