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MrPizzaDude
Guest
Romans 9:22-23; Ephesians 1:4 =(
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Nita
Guest
It really helps if you include the texts of the Scripture references.
Here are the texts:
***Romans 9:22-23 ** What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,
Ephesians 1:4-5 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,*
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UbiCaritas15
Guest
People aren’t pre “chosen” as much as they are pre “known” to “run to get the prize” 1 Cor 9:24, because God, who is eternal and all knowing has already seen the end before the beginning began. Which we know because the “Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world” Rev 13:8 has pronounced that “the gates of hell will not prevail” against the Church. Matt 16:18
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ScottEH
Guest
1 Tim 2:4
2 Peter 3:9
If I remember correctly, these speak of God wanting everyone to be saved. Yet, we know that some people are not. If God had predestined us, then God would have saved all of us, because, as the Bible says, that is indeed what he wants. It would be much easier to tell you why God cannot predestine us through logic, but I suspected you wanted something from the Bible, so there you have it. Hope that helps
2 Peter 3:9
If I remember correctly, these speak of God wanting everyone to be saved. Yet, we know that some people are not. If God had predestined us, then God would have saved all of us, because, as the Bible says, that is indeed what he wants. It would be much easier to tell you why God cannot predestine us through logic, but I suspected you wanted something from the Bible, so there you have it. Hope that helps
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Nita
Guest
If you’re willing to devote some time and thought, here is a good article by Fr. William Most on “Predestination”.
** Take time **- not just a minute or two, but perhaps days - to ponder, grasp, etc.
Pray before beginning; pray when you don’t comprehend something; pray …
Make prayer (conversation with God about everything) a part of your pondering.
Full article.
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/PREDESTI.TXT
A couple of paragraphs from the above:…
There is no time in God, but one thing may be
logically before another. There are three logical points in His
decisions on predestination:
** Take time **- not just a minute or two, but perhaps days - to ponder, grasp, etc.
Pray before beginning; pray when you don’t comprehend something; pray …
Make prayer (conversation with God about everything) a part of your pondering.
Full article.
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/PREDESTI.TXT
A couple of paragraphs from the above:…
There is no time in God, but one thing may be
logically before another. There are three logical points in His
decisions on predestination:
- God wills all men to be saved. This is explicit in 1 Tim
2:4, and since to love is to will good to another for the other’s
sake, this is the same as saying God loves us. - God looks to see who resists His grace gravely and
persistently, so persistently that the person throws away the
only thing that could save him. With regrets, God decrees to let
such persons go: reprobation because of and in view of grave and
persistent resistance to grace. - All others not discarded in step two are positively
predestined, but not because of merits, which are not at all in
view yet, nor even because of the lack of such resistance, but
because in step 1, God wanted to predestine them, and they are
not stopping Him. This is predestination without merits.
…
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TRH1292
Guest
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Lion_Heart
Guest
Greetings in Christ,
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect
Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, … has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.” End quote
Scripture Catholic by John Salza. (Catholic Apologetic)
III. Predestination and the “Elect”
Quote: “There are two types of predestination, TO GRACE and TO GLORY. … Predestination is either to grace (which we COULD LOSE) or to glory (which we CANNOT LOSE). …
1 Tim.2:6 – Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.” End quote. Emphasize mine.
With love in Christ
LH.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect
Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, … has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.” End quote
Scripture Catholic by John Salza. (Catholic Apologetic)
III. Predestination and the “Elect”
Quote: “There are two types of predestination, TO GRACE and TO GLORY. … Predestination is either to grace (which we COULD LOSE) or to glory (which we CANNOT LOSE). …
1 Tim.2:6 – Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.” End quote. Emphasize mine.
With love in Christ
LH.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Your questions and concerns are from your erroneous acceptance of Calvinism. Revert and it will all make sense!
Your questions and concerns are from your erroneous acceptance of Calvinism. Revert and it will all make sense!
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Like others said, we believe in predestination. Not double predestination.
It might help you to read on Reprobation to understand the vessels of wrath.
From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Ott):
Ott, L. (1957). Fundamentals of Catholic dogma (pp. 244–245).
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fhansen
Guest
Just go by what the Church teaches regarding predestination; the bible was never intended to serve as a catechism. Here’s from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
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600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance:**
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600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance:**
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