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EricFilmer
Guest
(Continued)
That is my brief paraphrase of CCC #1446, 1497, 1855-1861). Now, let us once more examine #1863:
Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.”
This statement was made to contrast venial sin with the previous definition of mortal sin. Mortal sin must be deliberate (i.e., full knowledge and consent) and one is required to specifically repent of it in Confession in order to repair the relationship between the sinner and God. But whereas a venial sin can also be deliberate, is nonetheless repairable without repenting of it in a *specific *way, or a formal way. After all, venial sin “does not break covenant with God” and its damage “with God’s grace is humanly reparable.” Therefore, we are dispensed from the necessity of having to confess all our venial sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, nor is this sacrament even necessary for the absolution of venial sins. Moreover, they can be absolved in a variety of ways (such as prayer, fasting, works of charity, participating at Mass, etc.) without having to specifically identify and express repentance of each and every venial sin. But in any regard, we must still have an overall attitude of sorrow for having sinned in general (a “contrite heart”) in order to be forgiven. If we do not, then in order to be saved, God has to force his mercy upon us, which would violate our freewill.
Concerning the importance of the relationship between our contrition and God’s forgiveness, St. Thomas Aquinas states the following in response to the query: “Whether we should have contrition for every actual sin” (notice this is about “every actual sin” and not specifically “mortal sin”):
“Every actual sin is caused by our will not yielding to God’s law, either by transgressing it, or by omitting it, or by acting beside it: and since a hard thing is one that is disposed not to give way easily, hence it is that a certain hardness of the will is to be found in every actual sin. Wherefore, if a sin is to be remedied, it needs to be taken away by contrition which crushes it.”
One the other hand, if he dies without any type of repentance or penitential attitude at all, then he has broken his covenant with God. How can a covenant with God be maintained by someone who refuses God’s mercy? And how can someone accept God’s mercy without acknowledging his sins and desiring to be absolved of them? If God still justifies him then that means God forced his mercy upon him, and God does not do that. In such a case, as pointed out in the quote I provided from Fr. Kreeft in my last post, even these venial sins are enough to damn him because of his lack of repentance.
Thistle and Lily, I hope I have clarified my position on this matter. But if you still believe that my position is incorrect, then please let me know and I will present a list of questions for you to answer (concerning the ramifications of the idea of God’s justification of an unrepentant sinner). Otherwise we can simply move on to other aspects of this thread’s topic.
Good question, and I will take a crack at it. A person is guilty of mortal sin if he commits a sin of grave matter, having full knowledge and consent. Such a person destroys the life of grace in his soul, and will end up in hell if steps are not taken to repair his relationship with God. According to the Catechism, the only ordinary means by which this is done (if someone is already baptized) is within the Sacrament of Reconciliation (although there can be, and are, extraordinary ways, such as perfect contrition). In other words, he must repent, and it should ordinarily be done during Confession, specifying the exact sin. Until this happens, other ways by which God forgives sin on a regular basis (such as prayer, fasting and works of charity) will not work because the act of a deliberate mortal sin slams the door on the flow of such grace into ones soul.
That is my brief paraphrase of CCC #1446, 1497, 1855-1861). Now, let us once more examine #1863:
Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.”
This statement was made to contrast venial sin with the previous definition of mortal sin. Mortal sin must be deliberate (i.e., full knowledge and consent) and one is required to specifically repent of it in Confession in order to repair the relationship between the sinner and God. But whereas a venial sin can also be deliberate, is nonetheless repairable without repenting of it in a *specific *way, or a formal way. After all, venial sin “does not break covenant with God” and its damage “with God’s grace is humanly reparable.” Therefore, we are dispensed from the necessity of having to confess all our venial sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, nor is this sacrament even necessary for the absolution of venial sins. Moreover, they can be absolved in a variety of ways (such as prayer, fasting, works of charity, participating at Mass, etc.) without having to specifically identify and express repentance of each and every venial sin. But in any regard, we must still have an overall attitude of sorrow for having sinned in general (a “contrite heart”) in order to be forgiven. If we do not, then in order to be saved, God has to force his mercy upon us, which would violate our freewill.
Concerning the importance of the relationship between our contrition and God’s forgiveness, St. Thomas Aquinas states the following in response to the query: “Whether we should have contrition for every actual sin” (notice this is about “every actual sin” and not specifically “mortal sin”):
“Every actual sin is caused by our will not yielding to God’s law, either by transgressing it, or by omitting it, or by acting beside it: and since a hard thing is one that is disposed not to give way easily, hence it is that a certain hardness of the will is to be found in every actual sin. Wherefore, if a sin is to be remedied, it needs to be taken away by contrition which crushes it.”
- St. Thomas Aquinas (source: sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum547.htm )
One the other hand, if he dies without any type of repentance or penitential attitude at all, then he has broken his covenant with God. How can a covenant with God be maintained by someone who refuses God’s mercy? And how can someone accept God’s mercy without acknowledging his sins and desiring to be absolved of them? If God still justifies him then that means God forced his mercy upon him, and God does not do that. In such a case, as pointed out in the quote I provided from Fr. Kreeft in my last post, even these venial sins are enough to damn him because of his lack of repentance.
Thistle and Lily, I hope I have clarified my position on this matter. But if you still believe that my position is incorrect, then please let me know and I will present a list of questions for you to answer (concerning the ramifications of the idea of God’s justification of an unrepentant sinner). Otherwise we can simply move on to other aspects of this thread’s topic.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
A mortal sin is an act of separation from God. Its like saying, “I do not wish to be with God.” That is why even one mortal sin is enough to keep us away from God. By denying God and refusing to do what is in harmony with God, then we cannot be with God.
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Tomster
Guest
Thanks CTG.
The eternal law directs rational creatures towards their last end and perfection in God. It is a union which will reach its final consummation in the vision of God face to face, and in this life consists in the mutual love between God and the soul, charity, the bond of perfection (1 Collossians 3:14). The end of the law, therefore, is God, to be loved by the rational creature as his sovereign good, to whom every created good must be subordinated. Hence follows this important consequence: willfully to disobey that law is to prefer some created finite satisfaction to the infinite uncreated good which is God. To disobey God’s law is to show by one’s actions that God’s will and good pleasure are not the predominant motive of one’s life. He who sins grievously implicitly declares: “I know that by this action I am forfeiting God’s friendship; nevertheless I do it.” What else is this than to prefer the creature to the Creator, one’s own gratification to the express will of God, self love to the love of God? “The end of the commandment is charity.” (1 Timothy 1:5)
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DavidFilmer
Guest
But I believe that’s the answer to this discussion.
A venial sin cannot consign us to hell, but if we are aware of the sin and simply refuse any sort of contrition then we have added a brand-new mortal sin. It is not the venial sin that dooms us, but our obstinate attitude when we thumb our nose at God’s and his mercy and refuse to accept the forgiveness that is ours for the asking.
If we had not committed the venial sin then we would not be condemned, so the venial sin leads to mortal sin (which is usually the way these things go).
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Another good analogy I use is biology. Jesus Christ is the head, and the Church is His body. Think anatomy. We are the cells in Christ’s body. The cells in our body work in harmony to keep a healthy body. If there is a cell that is destructive, such as a cancer cell, it is taken out. Such is the person who is sinful, one who commits mortal sin because he is not in harmony with the Body of Christ, and thus needs to be taken out.Thanks CTG.
The eternal law directs rational creatures towards their last end and perfection in God. It is a union which will reach its final consummation in the vision of God face to face, and in this life consists in the mutual love between God and the soul, charity, the bond of perfection (1 Collossians 3:14). The end of the law, therefore, is God, to be loved by the rational creature as his sovereign good, to whom every created good must be subordinated. Hence follows this important consequence: willfully to disobey that law is to prefer some created finite satisfaction to the infinite uncreated good which is God. To disobey God’s law is to show by one’s actions that God’s will and good pleasure are not the predominant motive of one’s life. He who sins grievously implicitly declares: “I know that by this action I am forfeiting God’s friendship; nevertheless I do it.” What else is this than to prefer the creature to the Creator, one’s own gratification to the express will of God, self love to the love of God? “The end of the commandment is charity.” (1 Timothy 1:5)
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catholic1seeks
Guest
It would be very unfortunate if most people end up in hell. And since the Church hasn’t made a definite statement on the matter, I prefer to believe that this isn’t true. Or at least, I would like to be optimistic about God’s mercy.
I object to the fact that an all-loving God would create us if he knew most of us would go to hell. Is it worth creating us if that is the case?
But it would also seem that even only 1 person in hell would be too many. But GOD KNOWS MORE THAN I, so I trust he has set up this world the best possible way that the most possible creatures will choose their Creator!!
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ConstantineTG
Guest
God does everything to save us. Jesus became man, suffered and died for us. That should tell us that God does not want us to go to hell. But look at this picture:It would be very unfortunate if most people end up in hell. And since the Church hasn’t made a definite statement on the matter, I prefer to believe that this isn’t true. Or at least, I would like to be optimistic about God’s mercy.
I object to the fact that an all-loving God would create us if he knew most of us would go to hell. Is it worth creating us if that is the case?
But it would also seem that even only 1 person in hell would be too many. But GOD KNOWS MORE THAN I, so I trust he has set up this world the best possible way that the most possible creatures will choose their Creator!!
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3cjVAYrofnYSTznw1c-A2bYCC5tNV0mahHnFnHzxDsLDJpmbs4w
Notice in the painting of Creation, God’s hand is stretched out to man, but man’s hand isn’t fully stretched out. This is free will. All we need to do is raise that finger and touch God’s hand. How many of us actually put that little effort to be saved?
Going to hell is not an act of God, it is man’s refusal of God’s acts. God did not create us to condemn us, but rather He created us our of pure love. But as beings capable of love, we have free will and therefore we should use this will to love God back. Many don’t.
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thistle
Guest
I follow the Church teachings (as I’m sure Lily does).
There are only two states a person can die in.
A state of mortal sin which means Hell is the destination.
A state of grace which means Salvation. The state of grace includes anyone who has died with venial sins and imperfections and such people will have to do their time in Puragtory to be cleaned up.
There is no such thing as dying in a state of venial sin only and going to Hell. That is NOT a Church teaching.
CCC 1864 “Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.” There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.
The above CCC 1864 applies to those with mortal sins and refuse to repent.
For the venial sins and imperfections (i.e. the lesser faults):
CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
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EricFilmer
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I and believe you both do as well. I’m not questioning your (or Lily’s) orthodoxy to Church teachings (and I apologize if I sounded like I was), but rather I’m discussing your interpretations of them. I am familiar with you and Lily’s various postings throughout the CA forums and admire the quality of them. I do have a couple of little critiques about the quality of your responses to my material (which I will get to in a moment), but that does not detract from my overall appreciation of your contributions on CA.
Anyway, I’m not exactly sure why you made the above statement. I certainly hope my posts haven’t brought my own orthodoxy into question.
I agree with all this.
But this isn’t quite what I have been saying, is it? (And here comes “critique #1”)
My initial statement from Post #6 (which prompted this whole discussion) was, “I think it is important to point out that venial sins can also result in a person going to hell if the person is not repentant.” Since then I clarified in Post #13 that when I said “not repentant” I meant a “flat out refusal to repent.” There is, after all, a difference between someone who is unrepentant because he never got around to making some sort of formal act of repentance about a certain sin, and someone who is unrepentant because he refuses to be sorry to God for having sinned.
Moreover, the quote I used in previous posts from Dr. Kreeft likewise specified a refusal to repent. Since then, I reiterated all this once again in Post #17. Therefore, my focus has not been on venial sins themselves, but the refusal to be repentant, which is a sinful action in and of itself.
And yet so far you have made four posts responding to my material without addressing this aspect. You have said that repentance is required for mortal sin, but have not explained how a person can flat out refuse to be repentant for venial sins and still be declared justified by God at his particular judgment. Incidentally, this is now at least the third time I have brought up this specific point in one way or another (see Posts #17 & 22), and so far there has been no response to it. Forgive me if these statements seem to convey a bit of a bite to them (for such is not my intention); I am merely offering what seems to be a reasonable critique of what has been lacking in your rebuttals to my position.
Here you are simply restating what you said in Post #18. Perhaps you would like to instead respond to the specifics of my line of reasoning from Post #21: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7511854&postcount=21
(Once again, no sarcasm or such intended; I am simply offering a reasonable critique).
Moving on…
The more I think about this whole thing, the more I am inclined to think that what I pondered in Post #13 may be the key to understanding this, and DavidFilmer seems to think it has merit as well:
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EricFilmer
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(Continued)
Yes, but this passage from the Catechism does not deal with the concept of repentance, and repentance has been my primary focus throughout this discussion. Therefore, I’m not sure why you posted this passage from CCC #1031, as it describes the purification of venial sin, but not the repenting of them. Correct me if I’m wrong, but did you post this to suggest that it is in Purgatory that someone repents of venial sin if he did not do so during his life on earth? Such a thing can’t be the case because “there is no repentance for men after death” (CCC #393).
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thistle
Guest
Dying with mortal sins on your soul by definition means they are unrepented and you go to Hell.
Dying with venial sins on your soul by definition means they are unrepented but you are still saved.
Venial sins do not require confession and do not separate us from God meaning Hell cannot be a destination for anyone who dies only with venial sins. We have not lost sanctifying grace.
Anyone who dies in a state of grace but with venial sins and imperfections on their soul will spend time in Purgatory getting those removed automatically because by definition being in Purgatory means you are saved.
Secondly, every time we go to Confession to confess mortal sins the absolution given includes all venial sins even if you have not confessed them.
Furthermore, the act of contrition at Confession removes all venial sins.
Works of mercy such as almsgiving removes venial sins.
Also, when attending Mass all venial sins are removed by the Confiteor and by receiving Holy Communion.
As Sunday is a day of obligation and assuming you meet that obligation then it means your venial sins are removed at least once a week.
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EricFilmer
Guest
Thistle, I’m starting to think that you are not actually reading my posts, at least not in a careful manner. I say this because you are not responding to my specific points, but rather seem to be just posting doctrinal statements concerning sin and Purgatory. Here you state, “Venial sins do not require confession and do not separate us from God meaning hell” as if I am proposing otherwise. Therefore I will remind you of what I stated in Post #22, which shows that I am not only aware of all this, but that it also does not address my specific point:
“…venial sin ‘does not break covenant with God’ and its damage ‘with God’s grace is humanly reparable.’ Therefore, we are dispensed from the necessity of having to confess all our venial sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, nor is this sacrament even necessary for the absolution of venial sins. Moreover, they can be absolved in a variety of ways (such as prayer, fasting, works of charity, participating at Mass, etc.) without having to specifically identify and express repentance of each and every venial sin. But in any regard, we must still have an overall attitude of sorrow for having sinned in general (a “contrite heart”) in order to be forgiven. If we do not, then in order to be saved, God has to force his mercy upon us, which would violate our freewill.”
As I have mentioned a number of times, my focus on this is the reason why a person is unrepentant. Did he just happen to not repent of his venial sins in a formal way but still considered himself a sinner in need of salvation? Or did he engage in an obstinate refusal to repent (as DavidFilmer put it, to “thumb our nose at God’s and his mercy and refuse to accept the forgiveness that is ours for the asking”). My position is that the latter can possibly constitute a mortal sin (and certainly does if this is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit), and therefore the person would not die in a state of grace. Once again, this is something that, for whatever reason, you are refusing to address.
But there is no repentance in Purgatory, as I pointed out in my last post (CCC #393). Therefore, either repentance for venial sins takes place before someone’s particular judgment or it is not required in order to be purged of them. It would be helpful in this discussion if you clarified your position as to which you believe is the case.
This serves to illustrate that a Catholic who practices his faith does so with a repentant attitude concerning sin (venial and mortal), both within the context of the Sacrament of Reconciliation and outside. As you can see from my above quote in purple text, I already went over all this and considered it back in Post #22. I will repeat here what I said then, in each case that you cited, contrition for sin is a condition for being forgiven. For example, a person who has absolutely no contrition for having sinned can go through the motions of sacramental Confession, but it would be invalid (i.e., his sins would not be absolved in the sacrament even if the priest pronounced the words of absolution). Therefore, it is possible (although unlikely) for a practicing Catholic to commit only venial sins without being absolved of them (and here, by “practicing” I mean going through the exterior motions of attending Mass and such but without the proper interior conversion).
Once again you are not addressing the whole aspect of my material concerning an obstinate refusal to repent of ones sins, even venial ones. So please answer the following question:
Do you think that if a person who only committed venial sins but nonetheless obstinately refuses to repent of them (thumbing his nose at the notion of God’s laws and divine forgiveness) can commit a mortal sin in doing so?
If you say no, kindly explain your reasons. Furthermore, I ask that your answer use the phrase “obstinately refuses to repent” rather than “unrepentant” (as I said before, there can be many reasons for someone to be “unrepentant”, so “obstinate refusal to repent” narrows it down to the attitude I am addressing).
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TomD123
Guest
We should pray and make sacrifices so that many will be saved… still we cannot say what the ratio of the damned to the saved will beIt would be very unfortunate if most people end up in hell. And since the Church hasn’t made a definite statement on the matter, I prefer to believe that this isn’t true. Or at least, I would like to be optimistic about God’s mercy.
I object to the fact that an all-loving God would create us if he knew most of us would go to hell. Is it worth creating us if that is the case? Remember, mortal sin is not like some “tragic accident” but a real choice. If God were to withold from creating the world because some would CHOOSE damnation, he would be denying heaven and the beatific vision for somebody who is good because somebody else decided to abuse their own freewill.
But it would also seem that even only 1 person in hell would be too many. But GOD KNOWS MORE THAN I, so I trust he has set up this world the best possible way that the most possible creatures will choose their Creator!!
I have to say something about the venial vs. mortal sin debate:
- unrepentant mortal sin is the only thing that will actually put us in hell
- venial sins lead to mortal sins
- venial sins can be forgiven in a number of ways: act of contrition, confietor, mass, communion, confession
- If one REFUSES to give up a venial sin, it will definatly lead to mortal sin: If everytime somebody gets sick, they refuse to take medicine/see a doctor, they will not die from the little sickness (like a cold) but their overall health will certainly deteriorate if they do not take care of themselves. If a person disregards venial sins as unimportant, their spiritual health will quickly become worse and worse, and they will reject God with a mortal sin. I think the case where someone is truly sorry for ALL mortal sins but REFUSES to ask for forgiveness for their venial sins is a hypothetical case only. If somebody loves God enough to not commit a mortal sin, they will be sorry for their venial sins and these sins will be forgiven now or in purgatory.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
Thanks for all who have replied! I think this thread has gotten just a tad bit off topic. I have only skimmed the recent posts dealing w/ the mortal vs. venial sin.
Doesn’t it just come down to this, though:
1.) Only mortal sin “destroys” the virtue of Charity, and so if one dies w/ mortal sin, he will go to hell.
2.) Venial sin does NOT detroy charity, so if one dies with only venial sin(s), he will still go to Heaven. But no sin is in Heaven, so this sin will be forgiven between death and entrance into Heaven,.
Doesn’t it just come down to this, though:
1.) Only mortal sin “destroys” the virtue of Charity, and so if one dies w/ mortal sin, he will go to hell.
2.) Venial sin does NOT detroy charity, so if one dies with only venial sin(s), he will still go to Heaven. But no sin is in Heaven, so this sin will be forgiven between death and entrance into Heaven,.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Yes, thats about right. In my own words, mortal sins are acts against God. So we cannot be with God if we act against Him.
Not forgotten. One has to go through a purification process. In the West this process is called purgatory. The East hasn’t defined it as much but believes that there is indeed a process where one is cleansed and perfected to be made ready for God.
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JRKH
Guest
Coming in late so forgive any repetition…
In relating to the above…many years ago there was a wonderful comedian named Red Skelton. One of his characters was a boy known as, “da mean widdle kid”. When this "little boy’ was about to do something wrong he would say, "If I dood it, I git a whippin…I dood it!! (wish I could communicate it vocally)
Anyway this, in a humorous way, is the root of mortal sin.
Da mean widdle kid knew he was just going to get a whippin - - but what if he knew (or at least been told) that he would be killed…would he still “dood it”? Probably not.
Yet far too many people actually do “dood it” even though they know it is offensive to God. Even though that they have been told that the “wages of sin is death”, they go ahead and sin anyway…Then they want to say - yea but I didn’t reject God… but they do!! Not in words but in actions, and in thoughts and in attitudes and in habits and in any number of things that build up walls between them and God.
Then at death they are so spiritually dead that they reach out and grasp that which they have given their heart to.
Mortal sin, if it is to be truly mortal starts with a rejection of God…It doesn’t have to be a so much in the sense of not believing in God as not taking God seriously and making Him Lord of your life.
Peace
James
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Right. And to add to your wonderful point, rejection of God can be either verbally or through our actions. An outright rejection of God is like someone publicly declaring they are an atheist. That is verbal. Mortal sin also does the same thing, but not through words but actions. By doing something that is the opposite of God, then its a rejection of God by actions.
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