Why does RCC have many statues, whereas Orthodox don't?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Madaglan
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Madaglan

Guest
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that Orthodox Churches tend to stay away from 3D religious icons, such as statues of Mary, crucifixes, etc. Someone suggested to me that the Orthodox believe that 3D images make the image too lifelike, and so divert one’s attention away from the heavenly subject of one’s prayer, and may lead one to idolatry. Perhaps if Fr. Ambrose is around he can better explain how Orthodox view the graven images of the Western Church.

I’ve read some of St. John of Damascus on the defense of icons; but I don’t think I’ve read anything about the defense of statues and other 3D objects. Any help would be great. Thanks! 👍
 
Well, from exodus 37 we have:
He made also the propitiatory, that is, the oracle, of the purest gold, two cubits and a half in length, and a cubit and a half in breadth. 7 Two cherubims also of beaten gold, which he set on the two sides of the propitiatory: 8 One cherub in the top of one side, and the other cherub in the top of the other side: two cherubims at the two ends of the propitiatory, 9 Spreading their wings, and covering the propitiatory, and looking one towards the other, and towards it.
So, God Himself commanded for his tabernacle statues of cherubims, made of beaten gold.

This is not long after the PEOPLE OF ISRAEL had made an of the golden calf. Exodus 32:
And the people seeing that Moses delayed to come down from the mount, gathering together against Aaron, said: Arise, make us gods, that may go before us: for as to this Moses, the man that brought us out of the land of Egypt, we know not what has befallen him. 2 And Aaron said to them: Take the golden earrings from the ears of your wives, and your sons and daughters, and bring them to me. 3 And the people did what he had commanded, bringing the earrings to Aaron. 4 And when he had received them, he fashioned them by founders’ work, and made of them a molten calf. And they said: These are thy gods, O Israel, that have brought thee out of the land of Egypt. 5 And when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it, and made proclamation by a crier’s voice, saying: Tomorrow is the solemnity of the Lord.
6 And rising in the morning, they offered holocausts, and peace victims, and the people sat down to eat, and drink, and they rose up to play. 7 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Go, get thee down: thy people, which thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt, hath sinned. 8 They have quickly strayed from the way which thou didst shew them: and they have made to themselves a molten calf, and have adored it, and sacrificing victims to it, have said: These are thy gods, O Israel, that have brought thee out of the land of Egypt.
This seems to show quite clearly that the making of images, or statues, is NOT forbidden, but that WORSHIPPING the image IS forbidden.

That said, how many Catholics offer up holocausts or give first fruit offerings to their 4" resin statue of the Virgin?

Do some people really think that the average Catholic is engaged in bloody worship rituals, or is so STUPID that s/he confuses an image with reality? Does the average person look at a picture of his or her child and give the PICTURE the preference to the child itself? Does s/he attempt to feed the picture while starving the actual child? Come on now.
 
Hi all,

I think its just an east vs west thing. Iconography is a very eastern form of piety while statues are western.
 
Perhaps its some residual iconoclasm.
Considering how much their religious devotion centers around icons, I sure doubt it! I agree with the comment about it being a difference between Eastern and Western cultures. Eastern Christians maintain strict guidelines on the form of icons to prevent any temptation toward idolatry and to focus the viewer’s mind on what the icon symbolizes. I think they would have no problem with a Western Christian’s properly-directed veneration of other forms of icons.
 
40.png
Madaglan:
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that Orthodox Churches tend to stay away from 3D religious icons, such as statues of Mary, crucifixes, etc. Someone suggested to me that the Orthodox believe that 3D images make the image too lifelike, and so divert one’s attention away from the heavenly subject of one’s prayer, and may lead one to idolatry. Perhaps if Fr. Ambrose is around he can better explain how Orthodox view the graven images of the Western Church.

I’ve read some of St. John of Damascus on the defense of icons; but I don’t think I’ve read anything about the defense of statues and other 3D objects. Any help would be great. Thanks! 👍
First I would like to say that the comments about statues and icons should not be limited to the “Orthodox” Churches since it is also true of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Second, if I recall my history reading correctly, the Eastern Church did at one time have statues, but these were destroyed during the iconoclast heresy. After that heresy was overcome, the Eastern Churches never redeveloped a culture of statuary, but did redevelop the culture of iconography.
 
Its important to note that while people in the west seem to be hyper focused on avoiding idolatry (most likely do to protestant influences) the focus in the east is avoiding sacrilege, not giving the honor do to things that are holy. So the difference in art work is simply difference in the cultures that the customs came from.
 
This is an interesting thread 🙂 the confusion is understandable. The lack of three dimensional statuary has nothing to do with residual iconoclasm although I guess I could see why the idea came about. After all, we kiss icons with abandon, I have never seen statuary or pictures kissed in a Western church.

Icons are not decorations either, although they can be decorative. Think of it like the Rosary cord, it is functional and the believer will actually kiss the crucifix before and after using it but some people will merely display them. Same with an icon, same with a Bible.

The fact is that the theory around which icons are used and produced is a bit complex, I am not capable of addressing this issue appropriately, so I would suggest further reading.

The ancient Greeks had certainly mastered the production of the idealized, yet realistic human form in three-dimensional statues. The Byzantine Greeks continued to produce these for public display all through their history, there was no cultural aversion to them. If statuary was useful, the Fathers of the church would have wanted them in the temple, but statuary cannot be used in Byzantine temples liturgically, let me try to explain.

As I said icons are not mere decoration, they have a dynamic component to them. They are written, not painted, according to some strictly defined rules. The iconographer is supposed to fast before starting an icon and pray continually during the building process.

The icons are like windows, a way of seeing what you know to be actually there anyway in another dimension. Icons are written in such a way that they give the impression that the subject is aware of the observer, so there is actually a two-way traffic there. Most subjects are portrayed frontally, not in profile so it is a lot like one person standing before another, and the exclamations of prayer can be like talking between people. Christ Himself is often portrayed with one eye looking directly at the observer and one eye looking beyond, as the One who sees right into you and all your sins yet also looks beyond all that, the effect can be stunning.

Christ Himself, in the flesh is an icon. He is The window for all to see God.

Two dimensional imagery is more useful than three dimensional imagery for this iconic depiction, especially since realism is not the first priority. Not all items depicted in an icon are in proportion, there is a tendency to depict things as greater or lesser in size to reflect their importance, it might not be immediately obvious but that will likely have a subliminal effect in telling the icon’s story, and icons are full of information.

Ordinary saints (bishops, priests and others) when in the presence of the Supreme Holiness are always depicted with their hands covered. It shows they are not worthy enough to presume to touch God.

The gold background is a way to depict eternity, or beyond time and space. Why is this important? Because the liturgy itself is the intersection between our world (in time and space) and the eternal realm, it happens right there, as in a cosmic zone, one is neither here nor there and we are joined by Our Lord, the saints and angels and all worshipping believers of all time, past and future! The icon is not a representation of these subjects, but a window into eternity where we see them for ourselves.

The liturgy is another important subject that should be considered along with iconography. It is a multi-sensory event. One is immersed in sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch and raw emotion. The intellectual component is supplied by the prayers and supplications which reflect what we believe and have always believed, long term worshippers internalize these ideas through repetition, Lex Orandi - Lex Credendi. The liturgy is like the worship described in the Revelations of John, if you come to observe (you are most welcome to), keep that in mind.
 
Thanks for the explanation Hesychios.

Someone mentioned above that the statuary in the East was destroyed during the iconoclasm controversy. Although I’m willing to accept that as true, I have to say that I don’t remember a strong presence of statues in either the West or East before the 8th century or so. Most religious imageray was 2D.

It is only around the Carolingian period that one sees statuary (both in relief and later in the round) appearing in any large numbers. I wonder if this has to do with the new Frankish or Germanic influence on Rome (when Rome looked north for protection rather than east)?

I also wonder if the East’s continuation of 2D religious art/icons had to do with the belief that the image or pattern of the “written” icon came from heaven as a revelation very early on to the apostles…such as St. Luke?
 
40.png
FelixBlue:
I also wonder if the East’s continuation of 2D religious art/icons had to do with the belief that the image or pattern of the “written” icon came from heaven as a revelation very early on to the apostles…such as St. Luke?
I think your observations are fairly accurate, and your comment about Saint Luke is certainly part of the tradition.

The Frankish impact on the Western church was enormous. I don’t know enough to comment on their influence in the use of statuary, but in many other ways the Frankish church definately affected the Roman church.

It isn’t only the Byzantine church that uses icons, other Eastern churches use icons as well, although the styling is different they are used in the same way, This is a testimony to the ancient origins of the practice.

One last point, Rome itself went through a Byzantine period, and archeological discoveries in Rome are revealing the many similarities between the Eastern and Roman churches in this respect. Ravenna has some great examples of later Byzantine influence and there is a native Byzantine church in Italy (basically in the south). John Cassian (a contemporary of Augustine and an enormous influence on St Benedict) represented the Eastern perspective in his church of Marseille, including his apophatic theology which was very influential on Western monasticism. The Carmelite Order originated in Palestine and was very Byzantine when the hermits of Carmel started to appear in the West, that influence finds echoes in the spirituality of John of the Cross. Byzantine theology and praxis need not be considered foreign to the Western church, it could easily be embraced.
 
40.png
Madaglan:
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that Orthodox Churches tend to stay away from 3D religious icons, such as statues of Mary, crucifixes, etc. Someone suggested to me that the Orthodox believe that 3D images make the image too lifelike, and so divert one’s attention away from the heavenly subject of one’s prayer, and may lead one to idolatry. Perhaps if Fr. Ambrose is around he can better explain how Orthodox view the graven images of the Western Church.

I’ve read some of St. John of Damascus on the defense of icons; but I don’t think I’ve read anything about the defense of statues and other 3D objects. Any help would be great. Thanks! 👍
What are you talking about? Catholic Churches don’t have statues. We traded them all in for banners years ago! 😃

James
 
What are you talking about? Catholic Churches don’t have statues. We traded them all in for banners years ago!
It’s funny because it’s true. 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top