Why does Sacred Scripture need explanation?

[SteveGC]

The true doctrine is within all mankind. We all know it and can either follow it or reject it out of our own free will.

Seeker100

I think your statement here was misconstrued as Existentialism or New Ageism, and I’m glad you cleared it up that you indeed were referring to doctrine of Christ.

Nevertheless, the problem with your thought here is precisely what COPLAND posted a few posts ago…
COPLAND 3:

The problem with that is that just about everyone outside of the Catholic Church has good intentions and are very sincere, but you still have the problem with totally different beliefs about vital things concerning our salvation. Just about everyone who follows that same thought as you has that same deep desire to “bond with God” but they all come to very different conclusions concerning things that cannot be compromised whatsoever. And if you say that essential doctrine can be compromised then why take the Bible seriously, if doctrine does not matter? That is where many “Christians” become relativists.

You see, Sacred Scripture was never meant to be read in a vacuum. And in fact, it was never to be read as some sort of mysterious soteriological treasure map, using the Holy Spirit as some sort of divine cryptographer, to unlock hidden mysteries of how we’re saved. That information, along with truths regarding the fullness of the faith and comprehensive guidance on morality, has already been revealed…2000 years ago in fact. The apostles received this directly from Christ. Is much of it now found in Scripture?..yes. All of it directly…explicitly? Not a chance. This is why the apostolic charism of divine oversight and protection of the entire faith was given by Christ…to accompany Sacred Scripture until the end of the age (aka the second coming of Christ). The death of the last apostle did not bring an end to this divinely ordained oversight and accompaniment. The laying on of hands has been used since the beginning to pass along this charism of the Spirit to allow Him (the Holy Spirit) to perpetually safeguard the fullness of Christian Truth, with Him working through the instrumentation of the leadership of the Church.

All that being said…we certainly ARE to read Scripture…daily it is encouraged. But not to uncover hidden doctrine. We prayerfully read Scripture in the light and through the lens of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Tradition (that same charism of protection since Pentecost) to be properly guided by the Spirit as He speaks to us through our reading, enlightening us to why our faith is what it is…and certainly how we individually can grow in wisdom, faith and virtue based on this enlightenment He gives. That’s what Scripture is for. Never to be read outside of this apostolic framework of The Church.

 

[Seeker100]

It is not correct to say that “we all have God in us”. We must invite Him in. Many do not. God, even though He is almighty, or maybe because he is almighty, will not force Himself upon us.

We can understand God (see St Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica) by virtue of our intellect; we love God by inviting Him to dwell within us. It is not automatic. God wishes us to give ourselves to Him completely (in spirit and mind, ie with all of ourselves) and to ask Him in. He will not force Himself upon us, which would render us mere robots. We must cooperate in our Salvation.

I agree with what you say here however you are skipping the topic and playing on words. God is known to all mankind. All mankind feels Him and understands Him. In this sense we all have God. He is always there for us. We either accept or reject His path for our lives.
God’s presence with people is also seen in that we serve Jesus in others. As Mother Teresa says when refering to Jesus (who is God), “And how much more ugly could he make himself than a badly diseased leper? And yet it is he. We must know it. As I know that two and two make four, I must know that it is Jesus in that person.”

Seeker100

 

[Seeker100]

I think your statement here was misconstrued as Existentialism or New Ageism, and I’m glad you cleared it up that you indeed were referring to doctrine of Christ.

Nevertheless, the problem with your thought here is precisely what COPLAND posted a few posts ago…

You see, Sacred Scripture was never meant to be read in a vacuum. And in fact, it was never to be read as some sort of mysterious soteriological treasure map, using the Holy Spirit as some sort of divine cryptographer, to unlock hidden mysteries of how we’re saved. That information, along with truths regarding the fullness of the faith and comprehensive guidance on morality, has already been revealed…2000 years ago in fact. The apostles received this directly from Christ. Is much of it now found in Scripture?..yes. All of it directly…explicitly? Not a chance. This is why the apostolic charism of divine oversight and protection of the entire faith was given by Christ…to accompany Sacred Scripture until the end of the age (aka the second coming of Christ). The death of the last apostle did not bring an end to this divinely ordained oversight and accompaniment. The laying on of hands has been used since the beginning to pass along this charism of the Spirit to allow Him (the Holy Spirit) to perpetually safeguard the fullness of Christian Truth, with Him working through the instrumentation of the leadership of the Church.

All that being said…we certainly ARE to read Scripture…daily it is encouraged. But not to uncover hidden doctrine. We prayerfully read Scripture in the light and through the lens of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Tradition (that same charism of protection since Pentecost) to be properly guided by the Spirit as He speaks to us through our reading, enlightening us to why our faith is what it is…and certainly how we individually can grow in wisdom, faith and virtue based on this enlightenment He gives. That’s what Scripture is for. Never to be read outside of this apostolic framework of The Church.

I have to say you remind me of John Lennon of the Beatles when he says in his song imagine, “I hope someday you will join us and the world can be as one”. Basically he is saying wouldn’t be nice if everyone was like me then there would be no conflict since we are all the same.

Seeker100

 

[SteveGC]

I have to say you remind me of John Lennon of the Beatles when he says in his song imagine, “I hope someday you will join us and the world can be as one”. Basically he is saying wouldn’t be nice if everyone was like me then there would be no conflict since we are all the same.

Seeker100

Wow. What an interesting revelation of your preconceived notions about the Church.

Do you “imagine” that the Church would like to eradicate your individuality? Your freedom to be uniquely who you are, who God made you to be? Sounds like you indeed think so. That’s a tragically diminished and erroneous viewpoint of what the Church is.

Do you have the same opinion about our education system? Do schools who teach students all the same subject material rob them of their individuality?

When Christ prayed to the Father, “…that they may all be One”…did He mean “that they may all be robots who all act, walk and talk the same”? The Church is Christ’s extension of His own divine nature on earth, until He returns. The unity of teaching, guidance, sacraments and worship that emanates from the Church is the same exact unity that Christ Himself prayed for…because Christ and His Church are ONE.

And each person in the Body of Christ can be uniquely who they are…

“Imagine” that.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Seeker100:

I agree with what you say here however you are skipping the topic and playing on words. God is known to all mankind. All mankind feels Him and understands Him. In this sense we all have God. He is always there for us. We either accept or reject His path for our lives.

Actually it is you that is skipping over the topic and playing on words. You are correct in your statement above nevertheless. However this does not address the need for an authoritative interpreter for the Scriptures. If that were not so, then there would have been no need for the Scriptures in the first place, as God within you would simply point out your path to you. But being of a fallen nature, we can misinterpret and rationalize what God is pointing out to us. That is why man needs a doctrine to live by, and he must be taught that doctrine. We are not like the Angels with infused knowledge.

 

[Seeker100]

Actually it is you that is skipping over the topic and playing on words. You are correct in your statement above nevertheless. However this does not address the need for an authoritative interpreter for the Scriptures. If that were not so, then there would have been no need for the Scriptures in the first place, as God within you would simply point out your path to you. But being of a fallen nature, we can misinterpret and rationalize what God is pointing out to us. That is why man needs a doctrine to live by, and he must be taught that doctrine. We are not like the Angels with infused knowledge.

We certainly need scripture as the scriptures tell us of Jesus and Jesus is the light of the world and the life of all mankind. He is a gift to us from God the Father so that we can serve God directly in other people through the Holy Ghost. As Mother Teresa says, “the poor are Christ in disguise”. This gift is the most valuable thing that any human being can recieve. This is life itself!!

Despite our fallen nature we are all very capable of following God with His grace as He is always there to lead us. Paul says, “Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely his eternal power and diety have been clearly perceived in things that have been made”. God tells the Jews in the Old Testiment to, “serve God and obey His voice”, “cling to God”, “love God with all one’s heart mind strength and understanding”.

God is the ultimate teacher. One must obey God first not man. Men can give good advice and direction which is certainly of value but ultimately our deciding what is good and true must come from God Himself and His communication to us in the present in our heart.

There are many doctrines and they all say they are true. Because a doctrine or a group of people say a doctrine is true does not make it true. One can only finally decide what is true by what God teaches the individual. We are as the angels. We do have infused knowledge.

Seeker100

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

We certainly need scripture as the scriptures tell us of Jesus and Jesus is the light of the world and the life of all mankind. He is a gift to us from God the Father so that we can serve God directly in other people through the Holy Ghost. As Mother Teresa says, “the poor are Christ in disguise”. This gift is the most valuable thing that any human being can recieve. This is life itself!!

Despite our fallen nature we are all very capable of following God with His grace as He is always there to lead us. Paul says, “Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely his eternal power and diety have been clearly perceived in things that have been made”. God tells the Jews in the Old Testiment to, “serve God and obey His voice”, “cling to God”, “love God with all one’s heart mind strength and understanding”.

God is the ultimate teacher. One must obey God first not man. Men can give good advice and direction which is certainly of value but ultimately our deciding what is good and true must come from God Himself and His communication to us in the present in our heart.

There are many doctrines and they all say they are true. Because a doctrine or a group of people say a doctrine is true does not make it true. One can only finally decide what is true by what God teaches the individual. We are as the angels. We do have infused knowledge.

Seeker100

“You are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my Church”. That Church existed for the most part undivided for 1000 years. The Bible, which you rightly reverence, was developed by the Catholic Church.

A time line for ya: the Catholic was started by our Divine Master on January 1. Our Orthodox brothers and sisters split off on June 30th. The Protestants split (and then split, and split, and split, and split, and split and split and…well, you get the idea ) on about September 22 or so…ie, they missed Winter, Spring and Summer completely.

And I agree with your doctrine argument, however, as a betting man I believe in the doctrine that was handed down by Jesus to his Roman Catholic Church from the beginning until today, over a doctrine that was made up essentially out of whole cloth 500 years ago or so. Oh wait, St James talks about Faith and Works? Throw it out. Jesus says the Eucharist is his Real Body and His Real Blood (“unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink of his Blood, you shall have no life within you”). Re-interpret it after 1500 years. “It was a merely symbolic”, you now say. Really? Then why did many “stop following Him from that day”? *Because He said what He meant, and they understood exactly what He meant. *

Even Martin Luther believed in the Real Presence, as most of his children, sadly, do not.

With all due respect, if Jesus left us example of anything, he left us the example that was everything: humility.

To believe that I as a mere human being, can out-think the Tradition of 2000 years is the essence of arrogance.

With all due respect.

Also, you say we must follow God only, not man. OK, good for you. Show me in the Bible where it says we must only follow the Bible.

 

[Seeker100]

“You are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my Church”. That Church existed for the most part undivided for 1000 years. The Bible, which you rightly reverence, was developed by the Catholic Church.

A time line for ya: the Catholic was started by our Divine Master on January 1. Our Orthodox brothers and sisters split off on June 30th. The Protestants split (and then split, and split, and split, and split, and split and split and…well, you get the idea ) on about September 22 or so…ie, they missed Winter, Spring and Summer completely.

And I agree with your doctrine argument, however, as a betting man I believe in the doctrine that was handed down by Jesus to his Roman Catholic Church from the beginning until today, over a doctrine that was made up essentially out of whole cloth 500 years ago or so. Oh wait, St James talks about Faith and Works? Throw it out. Jesus says the Eucharist is his Real Body and His Real Blood (“unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink of his Blood, you shall have no life within you”). Re-interpret it after 1500 years. “It was a merely symbolic”, you now say. Really? Then why did many “stop following Him from that day”? Because He said what He meant, and they understood exactly what He meant.

Even Martin Luther believed in the Real Presence, as most of his children, sadly, do not.

With all due respect, if Jesus left us example of anything, he left us the example that was everything: humility.

To believe that I as a mere human being, can out-think the Tradition of 2000 years is the essence of arrogance.

With all due respect.

Also, you say we must follow God only, not man. OK, good for you. Show me in the Bible where it says we must only follow the Bible.

Here is a time line for you. The Truth has been around from all eternity. The Truth will continue into the future forever. Some Protestants follow the Truth and some Catholics follow the Truth. Some Protestants do not follow the Truth and some Catholics do not follow the Truth.

To address some of your concerns:

James says faith without works is dead. He is right.

You say that one will not have life unless one believes that the Eucharist is the real body and blood. This is false. I have life through the Holy Spirit now as I write this and I am a Quaker so we do not even have communion symbolically. lol. (I do believe though that it may be true with some people the Eucharist may actually be Jesus however this is something I do not really know. All I know is it is of no use to me as I have life now.)

The bible does not say to follow the bible alone. The bible says to follow God with all of one’s heart, strength, mind and understanding.

Seeker100

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Seeker100:

The bible says to follow God with all of one’s heart, strength, mind and understanding.

The Bible says a lot more than that. You can’t base your doctrine on a single line in the Bible. Although that is the greatest of the commandments of God, it is not the only one. Everything that is taught by the Catholic Faith is also summed up in that commandment, but that doesn’t make it self-evident.

 

[SteveGC]

We certainly need scripture as the scriptures tell us of Jesus and Jesus is the light of the world and the life of all mankind. He is a gift to us from God the Father so that we can serve God directly in other people through the Holy Ghost. As Mother Teresa says, “the poor are Christ in disguise”. This gift is the most valuable thing that any human being can recieve. This is life itself!!

Despite our fallen nature we are all very capable of following God with His grace as He is always there to lead us. Paul says, “Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely his eternal power and diety have been clearly perceived in things that have been made”. God tells the Jews in the Old Testiment to, “serve God and obey His voice”, “cling to God”, “love God with all one’s heart mind strength and understanding”.

God is the ultimate teacher. One must obey God first not man. Men can give good advice and direction which is certainly of value but ultimately our deciding what is good and true must come from God Himself and His communication to us in the present in our heart.

There are many doctrines and they all say they are true. Because a doctrine or a group of people say a doctrine is true does not make it true. One can only finally decide what is true by what God teaches the individual. We are as the angels. We do have infused knowledge.

Seeker100

We agree with all of this, Seeker…certainly the words of the great Catholic, Blessed Teresa of Calcutta. This does not address the fact that Scripture does not stand on its own as solely sufficient for our understanding of God. If we truly desire for Him to teach us, we need Scripture to be accompanied by what it was designed to be accompanied by…the teachers who have divinely, inspirationally descended from the original apostles.

As you say, God is the ultimate teacher, and we must communicate with Him for knowledge and guidance of all things good and true. This communication is accomplished in many ways. In terms of understanding doctrinal truths about the faith, about our salvation, and morals…as well as in terms of the dispensation of His grace to the faithful, unified worship, and unity of professed belief, He instituted a divinely inspired and protected Church. It was to be visible, sacramental, liturgical. It was to always accompany Sacred Scripture - to testify to, and promulgate, the authentic, inspired messages and teachings contained within the pages of it, because they knew as God revealed to them, that the written word can be easily misunderstood if left to its own devices (absent from authentic, Spirit-led, Church interpretation). The apostles were the earliest leaders of this Church, and they were the first inspired shepherds to the faithful. But they weren’t the last.

This doesn’t negate the reality that God also communicates to us directly, individually…guiding us in our walk with Him…as we faithfully pray in Christ’s name. But He did not inspire Scripture to be isolated from the humans He also inspired to teach from it. He also did not design this human inspiration to disappear with the death of the last apostle. The inspired human element is to exist on earth, joined inseparably with Scripture, until the end of the age.

This is how we are to be of ONE faith (and yes, still free to be individuals with our unique circumstances, personalities, etc)…but we are to all be united in one flock, guided by Christ’s appointed shepherds on earth during His physical absence from us, until He comes again to claim us. These appointed shepherds are the inspired successors of the apostles…and yes, they are alive and well today.