Why doesn't baptism remove concupiscence?

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

Baptism removes all of our previous sins, including original sin.

Baptism also removes all of the temporal punishment we would receive for that sin in purgatory.

If this is the case, why doesn’t baptism also remove our inclination to sin, if that is just another temporal consequence of our sins?

Unless baptism is just like a plenary indulgence, and it is just the Church exercising its power to remove our temporal punishments?

 

[fhansen]

Baptism removes all of our previous sins, including original sin.

Baptism also removes all of the temporal punishment we would receive for that sin in purgatory.

If this is the case, why doesn’t baptism also remove our inclination to sin, if that is just another temporal consequence of our sins?

Unless baptism is just like a plenary indulgence, and it is just the Church exercising its power to remove our temporal punishments?

Sin is a matter of the will, our wills wrongly directed. Adam considered that he might will something of greater good for himself than God might will for him, which is why he determined to override God’s will. This life is a contest between wills; should mans will be done or Gods? Which is better? Which will give more satisfaction, more happiness?

Baptism returns us to the same status as Adam in terms of righteousness. But we only transcend Adams position-and ensure the permanent avoidance of our own fall-as we will to do so. In fact, Anselm, I believe, could only reduce the reason for Adams disobedience to nothing more or less than that he willed to disobey God. We must come to recognize why Adam was wrong, why God is worthy of our love, trust, and obedience, IOW why God is God-and man is not.

The struggle with concupiscence is a spiritual battle, nothing less than the contest or trial of our wills. To the extent we overcome sin, with the help of grace, we grow in love of God and our justice is increased. God didn’t violate Adam’s will; He won’t violate ours now. As Adam freely fell, we must freely rise, with God’s help.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Also Satan is still out there trying to work his plans until the end of time.

I’m not sure on this, still mulling it over, but when Jesus was on Earth, He was rejected by many of the Jews because he didn’t lead a conquering army to overthrow the Romans, etc. So they didn’t see how He could be the Messiah.

In our world today we still wonder - and it’s tough to come up with an answer that satisfies emotionally even if we know intellectually the reasons why God permits, for instance, the Holocaust, or the priest sexual abuse scandal, or terrorist acts, or abortion - the list could go on and on. We want God to just “make it stop!” when we hear about these things.

Are we maybe wanting God to do all the work for us? Are we not being proactive enough against the conditions of desperation that are fertile ground for the rise of ideologies and anger and ignorance that are at the root of these atrocities? Are we too busy going me, me, me - my parking space, my economy, my body (even if a child resides therein)? Too busy grabbing our “fair share” and seeking pleasure and avoiding pain? Don’t think for one second I am not indicting myself in what I’m saying here.

Think about times when people didn’t have to lock their doors in small towns. Think about all the expense we put out for armies, police, trauma medicine for shootings and stabbings. Then think what we could do positive with all those resources.

This is by no means the complete answer - but worth pondering . . . :twocents:

 

[Porknpie]

Sin is a matter of the will, our wills wrongly directed. Adam considered that he might will something of greater good for himself than God might will for him, which is why he determined to override God’s will. This life is a contest between wills; should mans will be done or Gods? Which is better? Which will give more satisfaction, more happiness?

Baptism returns us to the same status as Adam in terms of righteousness. But we only transcend Adams position-and ensure the permanent avoidance of our own fall-as we will to do so. In fact, Anselm, I believe, could only reduce the reason for Adams disobedience to nothing more or less than that he willed to disobey God. We must come to recognize why Adam was wrong, why God is worthy of our love, trust, and obedience, IOW why God is God-and man is not.

The struggle with concupiscence is a spiritual battle, nothing less than the contest or trial of our wills. To the extent we overcome sin, with the help of grace, we grow in love of God and our justice is increased. God didn’t violate Adam’s will; He won’t violate ours now. As Adam freely fell, we must freely rise, with God’s help.

So Adam had an inclination to sin from the beginning and chose to sin through his free will?

 

[shaky]

Sin is a matter of the will, our wills wrongly directed. Adam considered that he might will something of greater good for himself than God might will for him, which is why he determined to override God’s will. This life is a contest between wills; should mans will be done or Gods? Which is better? Which will give more satisfaction, more happiness?

Baptism returns us to the same status as Adam in terms of righteousness. But we only transcend Adams position-and ensure the permanent avoidance of our own fall-as we will to do so. In fact, Anselm, I believe, could only reduce the reason for Adams disobedience to nothing more or less than that he willed to disobey God. We must come to recognize why Adam was wrong, why God is worthy of our love, trust, and obedience, IOW why God is God-and man is not.

The struggle with concupiscence is a spiritual battle, nothing less than the contest or trial of our wills. To the extent we overcome sin, with the help of grace, we grow in love of God and our justice is increased. God didn’t violate Adam’s will; He won’t violate ours now. As Adam freely fell, we must freely rise, with God’s help.

Adam only had one sin to contend with and sinned Once. And was barred from the tree of life. He fell by the Action of Sin. Its a wonder he did not fall by only the thought of sin without the Action of Sin. What sin did Able Commit ?..
Now we seem to have many possible sins to contend with including the thought sins. God flooded the earth because with Man from Childhood every intent of the thoughts of the heart was evil. Except for 8 Souls Noah and his family. What Sin did Noah Commit ?
The Law was given through Moses yet Israel failed. God seemed have had enough of Sacrifices and burnt offerings for Sin. Because Animal Blood only COVERED Sin. Did Everybody End up in Hades until Christ Shed his blood and descended to hades to Proclaim to the spirits in Prison who formally disobeyed and that is why many rise from the Graves ?
The blood of Christ is supposed to TAKE AWAY Sin. Christ Said SIN NO MORE.

In this Life as Christians are we supposed to keep falling and Rising or are we supposed to Rise and stay standing ?

 

[R_C]

Baptism removes all of our previous sins, including original sin.

Baptism also removes all of the temporal punishment we would receive for that sin in purgatory.

If this is the case, why doesn’t baptism also remove our inclination to sin, if that is just another temporal consequence of our sins?

It is somewhat inexact to say: Baptism removes original sin. Original sin led, among other things, to loss of sanctifying grace. What Baptism does is infuse sanctifying grace and bring our soul to life.

You mention removal of temporal punishment. That is a different idea, though. In Baptism, a Sacrament of the dead, our soul receives the life-giving Spirit for the first time. Thus, both the guilt of sin and all the penalties attached to sin are remitted.

Some of the other inherent consequences of original sin still remain with us:

• death and suffering
• concupiscence

In Baptism we become neither immortal nor impeccable. This will all happen later…there is a process we need to undergo by freely cooperate with God’s grace, which will lead to our salvation, sanctification, glorification, and even divinization.

We are justified in Baptism (CCC 1992), but as st. Paul writes, we have to “work out our salvation”, “run as to win the race”, and “discipline our body, lest we be disqualified”…orthodox Christian doctrine terms this the processus iustificationis.

In baptism the guilt of original sin is wiped out and the soul is cleansed and justified again by the infusion of sanctifying grace. But freedom from concupiscence is not restored to man, any more than immortality; abundant grace, however, is given him, by which he may obtain the victory over rebellious sense and deserve life everlasting.

According to the orthodox doctrine reaffirmed in Trent, concupiscence remains in those that are baptized in order that they may struggle for the victory, but does no harm to those who resist it by the grace of God.

In short: it is a cross, but such is the Christian vocation, to embrace the cross and be willing to suffer, in order for us to “fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in our flesh, for His body, which is the Church”.

You can read more about all of the above here

 

[fhansen]

Adam only had one sin to contend with and sinned Once. And was barred from the tree of life. He fell by the Action of Sin. Its a wonder he did not fall by only the thought of sin without the Action of Sin. What sin did Able Commit ?..
Now we seem to have many possible sins to contend with including the thought sins. God flooded the earth because with Man from Childhood every intent of the thoughts of the heart was evil. Except for 8 Souls Noah and his family. What Sin did Noah Commit ?
The Law was given through Moses yet Israel failed. God seemed have had enough of Sacrifices and burnt offerings for Sin. Because Animal Blood only COVERED Sin. Did Everybody End up in Hades until Christ Shed his blood and descended to hades to Proclaim to the spirits in Prison who formally disobeyed and that is why many rise from the Graves ?
The blood of Christ is supposed to TAKE AWAY Sin. Christ Said SIN NO MORE.

In this Life as Christians are we supposed to keep falling and Rising or are we supposed to Rise and stay standing ?

As the Catechism teaches, Adam’s sin of disobedience opened up the door for all sins that followed because “All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.” (Para 397)

 

[fhansen]

So Adam had an inclination to sin from the beginning and chose to sin through his free will?

He had no inclination towards anything other than the good. His sin consisted in simply wanting to be God, believing foolishly that, by following his own will rather than remaining aligned with Gods, he would better himself.

 

[R_C]

He had no inclination towards anything other than the good. His sin consisted in simply wanting to be God, believing foolishly that, by following his own will rather than remaining aligned with Gods, he would better himself.

Well, the sin of our forefathers was not “wanting to be God”, for this desire was instilled in his heart by God Himself and would have been accomplished in the fulness of time. Their sin was to trust in a creature over the creator.

 

[grannymh]

Baptism removes all of our previous sins, including original sin.

Baptism also removes all of the temporal punishment we would receive for that sin in purgatory.

If this is the case, why doesn’t baptism also remove our inclination to sin, if that is just another temporal consequence of our sins?

Unless baptism is just like a plenary indulgence, and it is just the Church exercising its power to remove our temporal punishments?

Before Adam chose to scorn his Creator, he had *mastery of self. *His human nature was such that he was free from triple concupiscence. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 377)

Adam’s deliberate sin upset his natural mastery of self. Therefore, concupiscence became a part of Adam’s human nature which would be transmitted by propagation.

Because Adam was to be the natural father of all humans, his sin had disastrous consequences, including the fact that his own human nature was wounded. Note that Adam’s human nature was not totally corrupted; but rather its natural powers were wounded in that having sinned, he became inclined to sin again. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases Original Sin and turns a person back to God. (CCC 405) However, having deliberately chosen sin, Adam lost his previous natural mastery of himself. As a parent, having children, Adam transmitted his wounded nature to his children and to his children’s children for all time. (CCC 403-405)

Yes, we are capable of committing sin; but, we have Jesus Christ, our Good Shepherd Who leads us back to God. We have the Catholic Church, which has Seven Sacraments which provide the grace, that is, the help we need to remain true to God.

No matter what Adam did, God continues to call us, you and me, to eternal life
in the love-filled presence of God Himself. No matter what evil and suffering is in our world, we know that God, our Creator loves us and wants us to be with Him for eternity.

When Adam turned his back on God, God did not abandon Adam’s descendents.

 

[fhansen]

Well, the sin of our forefathers was not “wanting to be God”, for this desire was instilled in his heart by God Himself and would have been accomplished in the fulness of time. Their sin was to trust in a creature over the creator.

Here’s what the Catechism says:
97 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.
398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279

It seems the basic sin was disobedience. The reasons are varied, but wanting to be their own God, rejecting the real God, is right up there.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

It is somewhat inexact to say: Baptism removes original sin. Original sin led, among other things, to loss of sanctifying grace. What Baptism does is infuse sanctifying grace and bring our soul to life.

You mention removal of temporal punishment. That is a different idea, though. In Baptism, a Sacrament of the dead, our soul receives the life-giving Spirit for the first time. Thus, both the guilt of sin and all the penalties attached to sin are remitted.

Some of the other inherent consequences of original sin still remain with us:

• death and suffering
• concupiscence

In Baptism we become neither immortal nor impeccable. This will all happen later…there is a process we need to undergo by freely cooperate with God’s grace, which will lead to our salvation, sanctification, glorification, and even divinization.

We are justified in Baptism (CCC 1992), but as st. Paul writes, we have to “work out our salvation”, “run as to win the race”, and “discipline our body, lest we be disqualified”…orthodox Christian doctrine terms this the processus iustificationis.

In baptism the guilt of original sin is wiped out and the soul is cleansed and justified again by the infusion of sanctifying grace. But freedom from concupiscence is not restored to man, any more than immortality; abundant grace, however, is given him, by which he may obtain the victory over rebellious sense and deserve life everlasting.

According to the orthodox doctrine reaffirmed in Trent, concupiscence remains in those that are baptized in order that they may struggle for the victory, but does no harm to those who resist it by the grace of God.

In short: it is a cross, but such is the Christian vocation, to embrace the cross and be willing to suffer, in order for us to “fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in our flesh, for His body, which is the Church”.

You can read more about all of the above here

Great answer.

Thanks for the help everyone!

 

[shaky]

Before Adam chose to scorn his Creator, he had *mastery of self. *His human nature was such that he was free from triple concupiscence. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 377)

Adam’s deliberate sin upset his natural mastery of self. Therefore, concupiscence became a part of Adam’s human nature which would be transmitted by propagation.

Because Adam was to be the natural father of all humans, his sin had disastrous consequences, including the fact that his own human nature was wounded. Note that Adam’s human nature was not totally corrupted; but rather its natural powers were wounded in that having sinned, he became inclined to sin again. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases Original Sin and turns a person back to God. (CCC 405) However, having deliberately chosen sin, Adam lost his previous natural mastery of himself. As a parent, having children, Adam transmitted his wounded nature to his children and to his children’s children for all time. (CCC 403-405)

Yes, we are capable of committing sin; but, we have Jesus Christ, our Good Shepherd Who leads us back to God. We have the Catholic Church, which has Seven Sacraments which provide the grace, that is, the help we need to remain true to God.

No matter what Adam did, God continues to call us, you and me, to eternal life
in the love-filled presence of God Himself. No matter what evil and suffering is in our world, we know that God, our Creator loves us and wants us to be with Him for eternity.

When Adam turned his back on God, God did not abandon Adam’s descendents.

If because of Adams sin concupiscience became part of Adams Nature. In what sense did concupiscence become part of his nature ?
Does that mean Adam became a sexual being ?

 

[grannymh]

If because of Adams sin concupiscience became part of Adams Nature. In what sense did concupiscence become part of his nature?

Concupiscence as part of our human nature “temps” us to yield to greed, to immoral pleasures of the senses, to covetousness for earthy goods, to unwarranted pride, to lies, dishonesty, etc., etc. It’s like a television ad for Victoria’s secret which is no secret.

Post 6 has a better answer to your question. I especially liked the statement that concupiscence does no harm to those who resist it by the grace of God. The Catholic Church has Seven Sacraments to help us, in various life roles, to do good and avoid evil. If we do evil, we have the good of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, provided that we are sorry for our freely chosen stupidity. We can choose good. And lots of people do that.

Post 15 also has a good explanation.

Does that mean Adam became a sexual being ?

Adam was always a sexual being since his destiny was to be the father of humanity.

 

[fhansen]

If because of Adams sin concupiscience became part of Adams Nature. In what sense did concupiscence become part of his nature ?
Does that mean Adam became a sexual being ?

Concupiscence is used to mean “disordered desire”. It refers to 3 basic areas where man lacks self-control, lost as a result of separating himself from God, the only true source of man’s integrity or wholeness. The three are brought to light in 1 John 2:16:
"For everything in the world–the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life–comes not from the Father but from the world."

And the Catechism in para 377 among other places:
377 The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self. The first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being because he was free from the triple concupiscence that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason.

Adam was already a sexual being before the Fall, as he and Eve were told to be fruitful and multiply. It’s man’s lack of control over these areas-wanting what we don’t need-that leads to problems in all areas of life.

 

[grannymh]

Concupiscence is used to mean “disordered desire”. It refers to 3 basic areas where man lacks self-control, lost as a result of separating himself from God, the only true source of man’s integrity or wholeness. The three are brought to light in 1 John 2:16:
"For everything in the world–the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life–comes not from the Father but from the world."

And the Catechism in para 377 among other places:
377 The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self. The first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being because he was free from the triple concupiscence that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason.

Adam was already a sexual being before the Fall, as he and Eve were told to be fruitful and multiply.

I have always liked the way the Catechism of the Catholic Church and St. John explains this rather difficult topic.

Thank you.

 

[fhansen]

I have always liked the way the Catechism of the Catholic Church and St. John explains this rather difficult topic.

Thank you.

Thanks- but sorry for that-I apparently jumped in there while you we’re already replying.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

It is somewhat inexact to say: Baptism removes original sin. Original sin led, among other things, to loss of sanctifying grace. What Baptism does is infuse sanctifying grace and bring our soul to life.

You mention removal of temporal punishment. That is a different idea, though. In Baptism, a Sacrament of the dead, our soul receives the life-giving Spirit for the first time. Thus, both the guilt of sin and all the penalties attached to sin are remitted.

Some of the other inherent consequences of original sin still remain with us:

• death and suffering
• concupiscence

In Baptism we become neither immortal nor impeccable. This will all happen later…there is a process we need to undergo by freely cooperate with God’s grace, which will lead to our salvation, sanctification, glorification, and even divinization.

We are justified in Baptism (CCC 1992), but as st. Paul writes, we have to “work out our salvation”, “run as to win the race”, and “discipline our body, lest we be disqualified”…orthodox Christian doctrine terms this the processus iustificationis.

In baptism the guilt of original sin is wiped out and the soul is cleansed and justified again by the infusion of sanctifying grace. But freedom from concupiscence is not restored to man, any more than immortality; abundant grace, however, is given him, by which he may obtain the victory over rebellious sense and deserve life everlasting.

According to the orthodox doctrine reaffirmed in Trent, concupiscence remains in those that are baptized in order that they may struggle for the victory, but does no harm to those who resist it by the grace of God.

In short: it is a cross, but such is the Christian vocation, to embrace the cross and be willing to suffer, in order for us to “fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in our flesh, for His body, which is the Church”.

You can read more about all of the above here

While we were infused with sanctifying grace at baptism, Mary was infused with sanctifying grace at birth. This grace not only removed original sin for her, but concupiscence as well. Why couldn’t it do the same for us?

 

[grannymh]

While we were infused with sanctifying grace at baptism, Mary was infused with sanctifying grace at birth. This grace not only removed original sin for her, but concupiscence as well. Why couldn’t it do the same for us?

December 8th is the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

At the moment of her conception, God prepared Mary to be the Mother of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man. Original sin did not touch her. All she had to do was to say yes.