Why earth before Heaven?

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nkelly

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Greetings all! 🙂

Just a question that I’ve often wondered about…

Why don’t we begin life in Heaven with God instead of having to life life on earth first?

Is is to prove our love of God? Is it so we have a chance to gain merit? Is it a test of faith and faithfulness? Are we made worthy of Heaven by blind obedience? Why does God require blind faith etc…

I would very much appreciate some views on what to me is a bit of a mystery and is a favourite question of many atheists.

God bless,
Noel.
 
The Garden of Eden was paradise on earth. Man lost that paradise by disobeying God. Now man must earn the right to enter paradise.
 
No one really knows why God chooses to do anything, or even technically what He does at all. So I feel it is pointless to try and argue one way or the other, but it sure is fun to speculate.

I have never heard this from an atheist, but I have heard the “than why does God allow suffering?” argument quite a bit. The answer to that is simple. If everything was “Good” all the time, than we would have no means to measure “Goodness” thus making “Goodness” non-existent. And the ability to measure is a necessity to the human condition since without the ability to measure than there would be no way of knowing Truth and therefore no way of knowing God.

God doesn’t exactly require blind faith either. (as many atheists seem to claim). Ever read Thomas Aquinas? St. Augustine? If not, I suggest you do. You can then begin refuting every millennia old atheistic claim that you come across.
 
The Garden of Eden was paradise on earth. Man lost that paradise by disobeying God. Now man must earn the right to enter paradise.
Hello Wow, the thing is the GoE was still on earth. Why earth and not Heaven?

God bless,
Noel.
 
Hello Wow, the thing is the GoE was still on earth. Why earth and not Heaven?

God bless,
Noel.
God created the heavens and the earth and saw it was good. The last thing he created was man. I think by saying he saw his creation as good, maybe it was like heaven on earth. Who knows what it would have been like had man not disobeyed God.
 
God doesn’t exactly require blind faith either. (as many atheists seem to claim). Ever read Thomas Aquinas? St. Augustine? If not, I suggest you do. You can then begin refuting every millennia old atheistic claim that you come across.
I suppose that is true but it often seems that God is far away. I’ve often wished for a more “concrete” experience of God and the I remind myself that I should have more faith. But when doubts creep into my mind I think of Jesus on the cross and stories of miracles etc.

God bless,
Noel.
 
I suppose that is true but it often seems that God is far away. I’ve often wished for a more “concrete” experience of God and the I remind myself that I should have more faith. But when doubts creep into my mind I think of Jesus on the cross and stories of miracles etc.

God bless,
Noel.
Sometimes the devil works harder on us when he sees progress in the faith. :knight2:
 
God created the heavens and the earth and saw it was good. The last thing he created was man. I think by saying he saw his creation as good, maybe it was like heaven on earth. Who knows what it would have been like had man not disobeyed God.
Sure things would be a lot better but God knew in advance that man would sin and that He would send Christ to save us.

There must be a very good reason why we’re on earth with a physical body with all it’s limitations and tendency to sin and which prevents us directly experiencing the spiritual world.

Why aren’t all rational creatures angels?
 
I would offer the Baltimore Catechism answer:

God made us to know Him, to Love Him and to serve Him in this world and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

God is Love. To be happy with Him in the next world we must become Love also; we must learn to love. However, love is learned by doing; not by reading or hearing. We need hands on training.

By coming to know Him and serve Him by our actions in this world we come to love Him and others as He loves them and us. Our happiness in the next world will be in proportion to how well we learn to love.

My :twocents:
 
Greetings all! 🙂

…

God bless,
Noel.
Hi, nkelley,

Of course, God foresaw the fall. He chose to create a world that he foresaw and would allow to fall, but so that He could draw a greater good, and that greater good is twofold: to have mercy, and to love so much that He suffers for us.

If we had never fallen, admittedly, there would have never been pain or suffering. But Christ has TRANSFORMED suffering, by His Redemption of us, into something that, if cooperated with in grace, provides a means for us to LOVE Him and other creatures in a way that is GREATER than if man had never fallen.

Case in point is the martyrs. During pagan Rome, men, women and even CHILDREN endured tortures that terrified even the strongest of men. And they offered them up in love even for their executioners. And sometimes, the Roman soldiers who were carrying out the executions were so moved by the witness of the martyrs, who offered up these horrors with verbal prayers for the very executioners, that they threw down their instruments, converted, and joined the martyrs. Such love is so profound and moving, it glorifies God even more than if we had never fallen.

Think of Star Wars. Most action films today are based on natural vengeance: bad guys are just plain bad, so we should just kill them and send them to hell.

Star Wars is different. A boy grows up and becomes a monster, but in the end, his son restores him to love. Profound.

God’s Love was so unbounded that from all eternity, He desired to love so much that He could have mercy on creatures. So much that He wanted to suffer for them. But God cannot suffer in His Divine Nature, which is pure Spirit, hence, the angels could not be redeemed for several reasons: first, God cannot suffer for the angels in their nature, because the angels are pure spirit, and God is already pure Spirit and cannot suffer in such a nature. Secondly, the angels knew too much, and made an irrevocable choice to utterly reject God. They cannot change their mind, and the knowledge is so complete, they cannot be forgiven. They are like telling God completely and totally, go screw yourself, with knowledge of what would be all Catholic doctrine.

But if God created a material creature who, in the first fall, does not have complete knowledge, it opens the door for God to progressively reveal himself to man, and ultimately to acquire a physical nature, enabling Him to suffer in such a nature, and hence redeem the material creature. And couple this with Redemptive suffering, the creature can then go on to love other creatures with the same love, greater than if there never was a fall, and hence not suffering.

Does that help, nkelly?

God Bless your deep thoughts.

Scott
🙂
 
Thanks spauline. That does help me organize my thoughts.

I can certainly see how we can merit more by suffering and overcoming temptation etc. Without suffering and temptation, we can’t grow in love and virtue.

Do you think there is any way in which we, because of our suffering, temptations and need for faith, will ultimately have some “advantage” over the angels. It’s like the angels had it “handed to them on a plate”. We have to work hard to achieve life with God. What do you think? Do we thereby deserve a greater reward that if we had lived with God from the beginning as the angels do?

God bless,
Noel.
 
quote: nkelly
Why don’t we begin life in Heaven with God instead of having to life life on earth first?
Hello, Noel. This is a favorite of mine. I ask it often.
For the realities addressed by this question, are, in the end,
questions posed as to why suffering exists, and what is the meaning of life.
If life were a cakewalk, no such questions would likely arise.

I look at it this way: Those who wrote the Hebrew scriptures
were confronted by a life that was, as the saying goes,
“Nasty, brutish and short.” Zippo on medical care,
famine was always a worry, marauding elements
swooping down on them [the Babylonian captivity
springs to mind, as well as a stay in Egypt, in slavery.]

Man has a drive for meaning*.*

It is asserted that God appeared to Moses, and the rest is history.
One may claim that the Judeo-Christian scriptures
“explain” the meaning of life, but then one has to ask:
“Why would God allow immense suffering, through the ages?”
Had humankind begun in heaven, none of this suffering
and/or deprivation would have existed.

A religious “template” may be applied - which template purports
to explain the meaning of suffering in human life.
Job’s friends applied that template. “You must have sinned,”
and God basically told them that they were no friends of Job.
In fact, God deflects Job’s questions - asking Job if he was there
when He laid out the heavens, and so on.

In our own time, the existentialists give bold answer -
to the plight of those who share with them the human condition.
The existentialist, Albert Camus, claimed that life was absurd -
you’re born, you suffer, you die. Period.
He said that man could find both meaning and dignity,
in assuming a posture of “revolt” - in the face of no meaning*. *
*[l’homme révolté]
If I dropped down from another planet -
and viewed the suffering experienced by so many -
I would have a tough time accepting assurances,
from people of faith, that a good and loving Creator
permits such suffering and loss to some purpose
  • known only by Him…
Further, I would then wonder why a Savior was sent, Who was
this Creator as well - for Jesus is said to be the God/man.
Surely, the suffering of human beings may be attenuated
by thoughts of a paradise awaiting, after this life.
Humankind is more willing to accept their lot in life,
if paradise awaits them.

In the East, Siddharta Gautama - the Buddha - had like questions.
A prince, his family had protected him from any sight of suffering.
When Siddharta finally saw another human being in profound suffering,
Siddharta’s one thought was to find a way that would transcend such pain.
He left wife, child, and home, seeking an answer.
Buddhism was the result of his thought and life experience.
[He lived roughly 500 years before the birth of Christ.]

What is critical, in terms of the Judeo-Christian traditions,
is that man was at fault, and this is why the human condition is what it is.
[Paul later gilds all of this, with talk of “Original Sin.”]
Driven from paradise, mankind would now have to work,
with might and main, to return to this paradise, at the end of life.
It’s all man’s fault - nicely side-stepping the fact of the Creator’s omniscience.

God knew it would go this way. And He let it happen.
Tough luck, for humankind. I think that people of faith are reluctant
to aver to this reality [the omniscience of God] -
or to pose the question - that necessarily forms - of why
this whole project was necessary to begin with.

There’s nothing amiss with some intelligent suppression, in life.
Best not think too deeply about all of this.
For then the inconvenience of said questions would arise.
Why did not we all begin in heaven - as human creatures of the Creator?

Some questions in life are probably best not to ask.
For the answers might provoke still other questions.
Life is either absurd - or it has intrinsic meaning - given to it by God.
Each person must look at life squarely, and decide whether, or no, life has meaning.

Maureen Kathleen
[reen12]*
 
quote: nkelly

Some questions in life are probably best not to ask.
For the answers might provoke still other questions.
Life is either absurd - or it has intrinsic meaning - given to it by God.
Each person must look at life squarely, and decide whether, or no, life has meaning.

Maureen Kathleen
[reen12]
Again, the short answer is this, an incomplete answer for all the details, but a sufficient answer in general:

By Christ, suffering has been transformed into something salvific. HEnce, the starving people in Africa, while they await food, can offer their torture for the conversion of their oppressors. If even one of the them repented because of their love, God is glorified more than if starvation never existed. St. Maximilian Kolbe VOLUNTARILY offered his death in starvation for the love of another man. To those who possess only natural goodness, this is absurd, but to those who have been given and accepted supernatural goodness from God, it is beautiful, profound.

Suffering is now a vehicle that enables the creature to love others in a way that is greater than if the world had never fallen.

The martyrs show forth a beauty that would never need to be if there had been no fall. Loving so much that it hurts is more beautiful than if one never loved so much that it hurt.
 
Hi Nkelly.

I’m not going to claim to have all the answers, but I do know that the Church teaches that man is created a composite being, with both body and spirit. The angels, which are only spirit with no body, begin their lives in Heaven, which is the realm of the spirit (though that didn’t stop some of them rebelling!)

God didn’t create us to be like the angels, Hebrews Ch1 is good reading on that topic.

Both the Apostles and Nicene Creeds talk of a resurrection of the body. The Apocalypse says there will be a new heaven AND a new earth, and both will be the realm of God AND the realm of man. Being disembodied souls enjoying the beatific vision in heaven is just an intermediate point. Sometimes we get so caught up in thoughts of heaven (I mean, what could be more amazing than seeing God face to face, right?) that we forget that there’s EVEN MORE to come. At the last judgment, we will rise in glorified bodies, and will be once again whole humans, body AND soul, and will be better equipped to have a more whole experience of seeing God face to face.

Earth isn’t a bad place, it isn’t even necessarily a less-good place than Heaven, it’s just a different place, the realm of the physical body. When God walked with Adam in the Garden of Eden, when He returns to the new earth and the new Jerusalem, when He showed His full glory to the apostles in the Transfiguration, and indeed when He comes to reside in a truly sinless and well-prepared Christian in the Eucharist, we come to know Him in a way that the angels, being creatures of pure intellect with no bodily senses or experiences, can never know.
 
Again, the short answer is this, an incomplete answer for all the details, but a sufficient answer in general:

By Christ, suffering has been transformed into something salvific. HEnce, the starving people in Africa, while they await food, can offer their torture for the conversion of their oppressors. If even one of the them repented because of their love, God is glorified more than if starvation never existed. St. Maximilian Kolbe VOLUNTARILY offered his death in starvation for the love of another man. To those who possess only natural goodness, this is absurd, but to those who have been given and accepted supernatural goodness from God, it is beautiful, profound.

Suffering is now a vehicle that enables the creature to love others in a way that is greater than if the world had never fallen.

The martyrs show forth a beauty that would never need to be if there had been no fall. Loving so much that it hurts is more beautiful than if one never loved so much that it hurt.
You seem to be basically saying that we live life on earth so we can gain greater merit. Is that what you’re essentially saying?
 
You seem to be basically saying that we live life on earth so we can gain greater merit. Is that what you’re essentially saying?
greater merit?

No, greater love. We suffer on earth, not so that our old country buffet will be bigger in the Resurrection, but so that our supernatural love of God will be greater, and that, hence, our spiritual ecstasy in the afterlife will be greater. Loving without pain is wonderful. But loving so much that we suffer increases our love, and so those who suffered more in love shall experience greater ecstasy in heaven. Greater SPIRITUAL ecstasy. The cause of our happiness in heaven is not unlimited golf courses and pizza and beer. The cause of our happiness in heaven is our reception of supernatural love (from God and creatures), and our offering of that same love back to them.

The greater we have loved on earth, the greater shall be the joy and ecstasy of our love in heaven. The more we have suffered in love, the greater our love. Therefore, the greater our suffering offering up in supernatural love, the greater our reward, which is not pizza and beer and golf courses, but love.

Does that help?

God bless you, nkelley.

🙂
 
we must supplement with this, however,

Obviously, God does not will ALL persons to suffer ALL the time. Hence, if one has health, energy and sufficiency, it is granted unto us so that we may serve others in love. Hence, even if we do not suffer, our offering of ourselves in service to others in our particular vocations is still meritorious. For Christ loved others, taught, served, and He was not in severe physical or emotional sufferig all the time in His Ministry prior to His Passion.

Hence, as St. Paul says, if I live, I live for Christ, if I die, I die for Christ. All is for the glory of God.

Consequently, if we have health of mind and body, and food and clothing and shelter, and sufficient employment, we should give thanks and pray, “Lord, may I use thy blessings to offer myself in love, to reach out to others who are in suffering, so as to express your love, for as long as thy Will to grant me sufficiency in the necessities of life.” But if you are suffering and partially or totally disabled, we should pray, “Lord, if you will, please restore me to sufficiency so that I may serve Thee in Love. But if thou will to permit this suffering, help me to unite to thy Cross and offer it in love for my salvation and other poor sinners. Amen.”

🙂
 
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