Why isn't there an English Language Tridentine?

[DL82]

The TLM has a missal that gives all the prayers, responses, readings, etc. in English, so that the congregation can follow along.

So why, when the Church decided to have the mass in the vernacular, didn’t the priests simply use the English from the TLM missal, instead of starting a whole new liturgy?

I really love the reverence of the TLM, but I like to be able to follow the prayers that are said. It seems pretty much like a no-brainer to me.

Why is the NO always in English and the TLM always in Latin? Is there a reason?

 

[BobP123]

The TLM has a missal that gives all the prayers, responses, readings, etc. in English, so that the congregation can follow along.

So why, when the Church decided to have the mass in the vernacular, didn’t the priests simply use the English from the TLM missal, instead of starting a whole new liturgy?

They tried this right after Vatican II without much success.

Why is the NO always in English and the TLM always in Latin? Is there a reason?

We’re not supposed to do such comparisons here but the Pauline Rite is in many languages other than English, including Latin.

 

[drforjc]

They tried this right after Vatican II without much success.

But how hard, and for how long, did they try? If the same energy had been put into pushing it through that I’ve seen been put into pushing all kinds of questionable liturgical practices (hand holding at the Our Father comes to mind) through perhaps it would have caught on?

 

[BobP123]

But how hard, and for how long, did they try? If the same energy had been put into pushing it through that I’ve seen been put into pushing all kinds of questionable liturgical practices (hand holding at the Our Father comes to mind) through perhaps it would have caught on?

Good questions. And probably if everyone stuck to a prescribed agenda, this might have worked. But lack of organization amongst other things certainly prevented the English version of the 1962 Missal from becoming worldwide. I didn’t mean that to be sarcastic but we have to realize it’s just not the English-speaking countries that tried to interpret Vatican II.

The Latin-English translations you read in the hand-missals, most of them pre-1962 and even pre-1900, are indeed beautiful but try to sell that English to the public today? I don’t think so.

 

[Evan]

This weekend, a representative of the Chancery, cleared up a short discussion in pointing out that all priests have the authority to offer Latin NO masses. They need permission to use English or any other vernacular.

So the Latin Mass is NOT the Tridentine Mass(his point).

All Latin Rite masses are in Latin, but can be translated to a vernacular with approval of the Holy See.

My question is why are there so few Latin NO masses. I would have to go to Portland (from Seattle) to find one.

 

[Trelow]

I’ve been to one, it was perfect.

If it was my call, that’d be the norm.

The prayers that are said every mass were still in Latin, but the prayers that vary by mass and the readings were all in English.

 

[rlg94086]

Well, technically Camas, WA but close enough to Portland.

This weekend, a representative of the Chancery, cleared up a short discussion in pointing out that all priests have the authority to offer Latin NO masses. They need permission to use English or any other vernacular.

So the Latin Mass is NOT the Tridentine Mass(his point).

All Latin Rite masses are in Latin, but can be translated to a vernacular with approval of the Holy See.

My question is why are there so few Latin NO masses. I would have to go to Portland (from Seattle) to find one.

 

[KeithL]

Would this be the same as the Mass on EWTN? I love the way they do it…In that they use Latin,but the peoples parts and Homily are done in English.

Sorry Im pretty new to the Faith,so Im still trying to learn all the differences.

Here we have the NO Mass,but I would love to have the Mass done in Latin similar to that on EWTN.

 

[palmas85]

But how hard, and for how long, did they try? If the same energy had been put into pushing it through that I’ve seen been put into pushing all kinds of questionable liturgical practices (hand holding at the Our Father comes to mind) through perhaps it would have caught on?

They did it for about five years or so until the Pauline was developed. It wasn’t exactly the traditional mass done in the vernacular, there were a few differences, but it was pretty close. That was the problem. In those days if it was old it was bad and if it was new it was good. That was the general idea and that essentially, sad to say is exactly what happened. The old was bad and was gone and the new however horrible it was was good and kept.

Remember too that in those halcion days of Jesus Christ Superstar and Christ being looked upon as everything from a chic political revolutionary to a womans lib advocate and everything in between, there just wasn’t much room for the traditional view.

 

[BobP123]

This weekend, a representative of the Chancery, cleared up a short discussion in pointing out that all priests have the authority to offer Latin NO masses. They need permission to use English or any other vernacular.

So the Latin Mass is NOT the Tridentine Mass(his point).

All Latin Rite masses are in Latin, but can be translated to a vernacular with approval of the Holy See.

My question is why are there so few Latin NO masses. I would have to go to Portland (from Seattle) to find one.

By the time the Latin NO was introduced, most Masses had already been vernacularized. And the learning curve on something new in Latin would have been higher, especially since fewer and fewer schools were teaching it. Latin is now making an obvious comeback, thanks in part to the internet, so maybe there is hope for those who would like the Latin NO to become more available.

 

[alih]

i do believe that if one would take a look at what the catholic encyclopaedia says about the ideas fostered by calvin and knox, one would be surprised to find out that their beliefs that the mass should be said in the vernacular (vulgar) were…condemned…
therefore, no tridentine mass in the vulgar (vernacular). have a good year. (alih)

 

[Unitas]

So why, when the Church decided to have the mass in the vernacular, didn’t the priests simply use the English from the TLM missal, instead of starting a whole new liturgy?

The Church never decided to have the entire mass in the vernacular.

Sacrosanctum Concilium allows for some parts of the mass to be in the vernacular, but it also calls for the retention of latin in the Latin Rites. No permission was given to have the entire mass in the vernacular, but rather the use of latin was to be retained, even if only in part.

Also, SC calls for the reform of the (at the time) current liturgy, not a brand new liturgy. Although, as it is in practice today, the two are obviously different even if not formally recognized as different rites.

 

[patrick457]

Why is the NO always in English and the TLM always in Latin? Is there a reason?

Because it is an old tradition in the Church to say the Liturgy in Latin. The other Rites of the Roman Church, say the Mozarabic or the Ambrosian, also say the Liturgy in Latin. It’s our liturgical language.

As for the MN (Missa Normativa; the NO), it can, could, and probably was meant to be celebrated in Latin. Originally, it was permitted to say it in the vernacular. So vernacular Masses are supposedtobethe exception, not the norm. Some mistook it as a command and started to say the NO only in the vernacular. It then spread until it became the norm and it was even thought that ‘Latin was abolished’ and one is NOT allowed to say it in Latin.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Palmas 85 hit it right on the head. The five years after Vatican II were were in transition to the NO. This was explained to us in great detail from the pulpit back then.

“The old was bad and was gone and the new however horrible it was was good and kept.”

How else to explain why, for my high school graduation in 1969, we sang “Sons of God” (anyone remember that?); Bridge over Troubled Waters (Simon and Garfunkul); Hello Darkness (Simon and Garfunkul); and They’ll Know We are Christians as the Introit, Offetory, Communion and Recessional for my high school graduation. The 100th and last graduating class for my high school. Thirty eight years later, I have not forgotten it.

 

[patrick457]

brother, it’s spelled Garfunkel.

I’ve checked the lyrics and was surprised. What is the lyrics’ connection to the Mass?

 

[alih]

according to the church, the canon law of 1917 was in full force and effect until the canon law of 1983 was promulgated. unfortunately for many, the encyclical “praestantia scripturae sancrae” was also in full force and effect. which states in part:“we declare and decree that should anybody…be so rash as to defend any one of the propositions, opinions or teachings condemned in these documents he falls,ipso facto, under the censure contained the chapter ‘docentes’ of the constitution ‘apostolic sedis’ which is the first amond the excommunications latae sectentiae, simply reserved to the roman pontiff. this excommunication is to be understood as salvis poenis, which may be incurred by those who have violated in any way the said documents, as propagators and defenders of heresies, when their propositions, opinions and teachings are heretical, as has happened more than once inthe case of the adversaries of both these documents, especially whenthey advocate the errors of the modernists that is,the synthesis of all heresies.”
this was dated nov. 18, 1907 and has to date, not been abrogated. this can be accessed on the vatican website. have a good year. (alih)

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

So why, when the Church decided to have the mass in the vernacular, didn’t the priests simply use the English from the TLM missal, instead of starting a whole new liturgy?

I have wondered this same thing for many years. It is a wonderful question to explore. It is ashame so few people have offered productive comments towards it.

The Latin-English translations you read in the hand-missals, most of them pre-1962 and even pre-1900, are indeed beautiful but try to sell that English to the public today? I don’t think so.

Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches of every sort say their liturgies in this beautiful elegant so-called antiquated poetic english…They are very healthy parishes.

This is not something to sell, it is a gift of God to the entire world…the western industrialized commercial culture seems to have taken over parts of the Latin Catholic Church. I see no other explanation for how its traditions could be destroyed and people talk of it’s liturgical language as if it is “a product to be sold”.
Save us from these troubles we must overturn the evil ones deceit.

Almighty God, our Help and Refuge, Fountain of wisdom and Tower of strength, who knowest that we can do nothing without thy guidance and help; assist us, we pray to thee, and direct us to divine wisdom and power,

that we may accomplish our task, and whatever we may undertake to do, faithfully and dilligently, according to thy will, so that it may be profitable to ourself and others, and to the glory of thy Holy Name. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.