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JimG
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“If this advice about marriage according to Jane Austen writing 200 years ago seems irrelevant to our current concerns about relations between the sexes, it’s not.”
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Xantippe
Guest
OK, I have to take this author to the woodshed.
She’s talking about the marriage proposals in Pride and Prejudice, whereas there are a lot of MeToo situations in the book–if you look beyond the main character. Here are some examples from Pride and Prejudice and elsewhere:
–Wickham tries to run away with Darcy’s 15-year-old sister
–Wickham tries (and succeeds) in running away with and (presumably) deflowering Lydia, Elizabeth’s 15-year-old sister (hmmmm–this guy really seems to like 15-year-old girls)–only with great effort is he persuaded to “do the right thing” and marry her
–After this event, it’s discovered that Wickham has been doing something similar with lower class girls (presumably of his favorite age category). “He was declared to be in debt to every tradesmen in the place, and his intrigues, all honoured with the title of seduction, had been extended into every tradesman’s family.”
In Sense and Sensibility, there are a couple different stories along the same lines.
en.wikipedia.org
“Colonel Brandon, a friend of Elinor and Marianne, explains the reason for Willoughby’s abrupt change of heart. It turns out that Willoughby had seduced the Colonel’s 15-year-old ward, Beth, then abandoned her though she was pregnant. Brandon finds her, but in doing so Willoughby’s actions are revealed to the world. When his aunt learns of the scandal, she demands that he makes amends to Beth. When he refuses, she expels him from her estate and disinherits him, leaving him penniless and with many debts. It is at this point that he flees to London in search of a rich wife. Elinor tells Marianne about this in order that she see what a selfish person Willoughby is.”
Ms. Moynihan says, “All this happens within a social context where the norms governing relations between the sexes are clear and the rituals of courtship understood by everybody.”
I don’t think that is correct–there are a lot of misunderstandings and secrets in Jane Austen, and a lot of motives and characters are murky until the end of each books, not to mention a lot of people behaving badly.
She’s talking about the marriage proposals in Pride and Prejudice, whereas there are a lot of MeToo situations in the book–if you look beyond the main character. Here are some examples from Pride and Prejudice and elsewhere:
–Wickham tries to run away with Darcy’s 15-year-old sister
–Wickham tries (and succeeds) in running away with and (presumably) deflowering Lydia, Elizabeth’s 15-year-old sister (hmmmm–this guy really seems to like 15-year-old girls)–only with great effort is he persuaded to “do the right thing” and marry her
–After this event, it’s discovered that Wickham has been doing something similar with lower class girls (presumably of his favorite age category). “He was declared to be in debt to every tradesmen in the place, and his intrigues, all honoured with the title of seduction, had been extended into every tradesman’s family.”
In Sense and Sensibility, there are a couple different stories along the same lines.
John Willoughby - Wikipedia
“Colonel Brandon, a friend of Elinor and Marianne, explains the reason for Willoughby’s abrupt change of heart. It turns out that Willoughby had seduced the Colonel’s 15-year-old ward, Beth, then abandoned her though she was pregnant. Brandon finds her, but in doing so Willoughby’s actions are revealed to the world. When his aunt learns of the scandal, she demands that he makes amends to Beth. When he refuses, she expels him from her estate and disinherits him, leaving him penniless and with many debts. It is at this point that he flees to London in search of a rich wife. Elinor tells Marianne about this in order that she see what a selfish person Willoughby is.”
Ms. Moynihan says, “All this happens within a social context where the norms governing relations between the sexes are clear and the rituals of courtship understood by everybody.”
I don’t think that is correct–there are a lot of misunderstandings and secrets in Jane Austen, and a lot of motives and characters are murky until the end of each books, not to mention a lot of people behaving badly.
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Rhubarb
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Is this author pining for the days when women couldn’t vote and marital rape was considered a non-crime?
No I suppose not… I don’t have any objection to families being families. But I suspect the author is looking past some things.
No I suppose not… I don’t have any objection to families being families. But I suspect the author is looking past some things.
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PetraG
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No, this author is imagining that women in the “MeToo” movement wouldn’t know how to tell two different men who were both making a very bad proposal of marriage that each was “the last man on earth” she’d agree to marry. Reality check: They know how to do that!!
Women have always chosen their battles. The MeToo movement is about changing battles that used to be passed over as not worth the trouble or avoided as not likely to be won into lines in the sand that have to be set down and defended if our society is ever going to have civilized standards of behavior between women and men who are essentially strangers but who imagine they can act as if they are familiars.
I would truly hope, by the way, that men will be able to expect all the defense from overly familiar women (or men) who think they are in a position to take liberties that women are saying they will demand when they are in the same situations.
The thing I don’t understand but can only chalk up to the gaslighting by cads who won’t admit the way they really act around women is the fear that men who act decently have about these standards, these lines in the stand. The standard is not more exacting than the very standards that most men already keep, particularly around women they perceive as having enough status to make their lives unpleasant if they cross a line into behavior that is more familiar than what is wanted by the object of their would-be affections.
This isn’t that dangerous and it isn’t that hard. I have no idea why people think it is.
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Rhubarb
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Interesting. I’ll have to mull this over before I make my reply.
I mean… It can be dangerous. Just saying no can and does lead to violence from the rejected Cassanova at times. I don’t know if I’m following. Again… Mulling it over.
I mean… It can be dangerous. Just saying no can and does lead to violence from the rejected Cassanova at times. I don’t know if I’m following. Again… Mulling it over.
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Xantippe
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Yeah, I feel like she’s seeing only the pretty dresses and the elegant dances and missing EVERYTHING else about Jane Austen.
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Rhubarb
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And I think a misunderstanding of the scope of MeToo.
I have several friends who are catcalled regularly. One while I was walking with her - she was wearing a thick sweatshirt and baggy pants and was walking with her young son so she wasn’t dressed all sexy-like. After a few stern words (threats) to the stranger he drove off. She told me she’s had things thrown at her for saying no, and that responding with clear forceful refusals can be dangerous.
And while I agree… I’d like to think that if I were a starlet I would straight up refuse abusive producers and find a new career if I must… That’s side-strpping the real issue of men behaving badly. And it doesn’t address the diverse bad behavior that needs to be dealt with.
I have several friends who are catcalled regularly. One while I was walking with her - she was wearing a thick sweatshirt and baggy pants and was walking with her young son so she wasn’t dressed all sexy-like. After a few stern words (threats) to the stranger he drove off. She told me she’s had things thrown at her for saying no, and that responding with clear forceful refusals can be dangerous.
And while I agree… I’d like to think that if I were a starlet I would straight up refuse abusive producers and find a new career if I must… That’s side-strpping the real issue of men behaving badly. And it doesn’t address the diverse bad behavior that needs to be dealt with.
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PetraG
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Oh, it is not a good thing to use Jane Austen for nefarious purposes around a Jane Austen fan!!
More to the point: The MeToo movement has ZERO to do with marriage proposals.
ZERO POINT ZERO ZERO ZERO.
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Xantippe
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I think the author would hate this reading, but a lot of Jane Austen is about the dangers and limitations of young ladyhood in her era, even among the privileged.
For example, in these cases with the 15-year-olds who were encouraged to go off by an unscrupulous young man, the best case scenario was getting the unscrupulous young man to marry the girl after she’d been “ruined”. It is a very happy fact of modern life that being an airhead 15-year-old does not mean being forced to marry a bad person.
I also forgot to mention Marianne and Willoughby in Sense and Sensibility. After we learn about Willoughby’s behavior toward Colonel Brandom’s teenage ward (he got her pregnant and abandoned her), the fact that Willoughby took 17-year-old (?) Marianne on an inappropriate carriage ride and visit to his house looks suddenly very sinister. We’re supposed to think that nothing bad happened to Marianne, but that it was very good luck on Marianne’s part–it’s not like strong morals and good character were holding Willoughby back.
For example, in these cases with the 15-year-olds who were encouraged to go off by an unscrupulous young man, the best case scenario was getting the unscrupulous young man to marry the girl after she’d been “ruined”. It is a very happy fact of modern life that being an airhead 15-year-old does not mean being forced to marry a bad person.
I also forgot to mention Marianne and Willoughby in Sense and Sensibility. After we learn about Willoughby’s behavior toward Colonel Brandom’s teenage ward (he got her pregnant and abandoned her), the fact that Willoughby took 17-year-old (?) Marianne on an inappropriate carriage ride and visit to his house looks suddenly very sinister. We’re supposed to think that nothing bad happened to Marianne, but that it was very good luck on Marianne’s part–it’s not like strong morals and good character were holding Willoughby back.
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Xantippe
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One of Jane Austen’s big themes is young men who seem charming and trustworthy in public, but who have a darker side.
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Elizabeth3
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She does mention these here
“There are exceptions, among the minor characters: the plausible fortune hunter George Wickham, after courting Elizabeth, runs off with Lydia Bennet with no intention of marrying her (having no means to support her); in Mansfield Park, Henry Crawford encourages the unhappily married Maria Bertram to run away with him and then abandons her. There have always been self-centred, manipulative men, and women, but in Austen their errors tend to prove the rule: “no” is the default position for sex outside marriage. And, she would say, sensible women would make it their own today.”
But it is true that even with social norms governing behavior things aren’t always perfectly clear to all parties involved.
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Xantippe
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I feel like she could have talked a lot more about those situations.
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Elizabeth3
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Heh. Nothing happened probably because that was all part of the grooming process. Earn trust by following the rules so you can strike later.
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Xantippe
Guest
Except not exactly follow the rules–zigzag a little.
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Elizabeth3
Guest
“It is this robust sense of self-worth that the unhappy women of today’s Me Too movement seem to have lacked, temporising with and often giving in to – not offers of marriage, of course, but mere pressure for sex, or at least tolerance for sleazy talk and groping. Apparently, the job they hoped to get, or the one they wanted to hold onto, was worth more to them than their self-respect. Beyond the workplace, the need to keep a boyfriend or to get a second date – because there is no hope of anything better – has the same effect.”
Isn’t #metoo more about certain men’s entitlement mentality in making improper remarks/requests or inappropriate touching than about whether the woman who the remarks were directed to has a sense of self-worth or not?
I feel like the author is trying to fit too many issues into this article but is labeling them all under #metoo. While it is true that women who don’t have a good sense of their self-worth may be more easily pressured into sex or keeping a not-so-nice boyfriend, that doesn’t really address #metoo.
With #metoo you have the added factor that the man is abusing his position by threatening either implicitly or explicitly a woman’s livelihood. The issue isn’t whether a woman understands her worth but that she shouldn’t have to choose between that and her ability to support herself and perhaps her children. She shouldn’t be put in that position in the first place and the fault in that lies squarely with the men who put her there.
Women do need to understand their self-worth and to easily be able to tell the difference between indecent propositions and decent ones but that doesn’t have anything to do with telling these men that putting someone in a vulnerable position to have to choose between self-worth or their ability to support themselves is no longer tolerated. A woman should be able to choose both/and, not either/or.
Isn’t #metoo more about certain men’s entitlement mentality in making improper remarks/requests or inappropriate touching than about whether the woman who the remarks were directed to has a sense of self-worth or not?
I feel like the author is trying to fit too many issues into this article but is labeling them all under #metoo. While it is true that women who don’t have a good sense of their self-worth may be more easily pressured into sex or keeping a not-so-nice boyfriend, that doesn’t really address #metoo.
With #metoo you have the added factor that the man is abusing his position by threatening either implicitly or explicitly a woman’s livelihood. The issue isn’t whether a woman understands her worth but that she shouldn’t have to choose between that and her ability to support herself and perhaps her children. She shouldn’t be put in that position in the first place and the fault in that lies squarely with the men who put her there.
Women do need to understand their self-worth and to easily be able to tell the difference between indecent propositions and decent ones but that doesn’t have anything to do with telling these men that putting someone in a vulnerable position to have to choose between self-worth or their ability to support themselves is no longer tolerated. A woman should be able to choose both/and, not either/or.
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Xantippe
Guest
That reminds me of Jane Fairfax in Emma.
She was preparing for a lifetime of economic dependence and having to put up with poor working conditions and various humiliations working as a governess–one of the few respectable professional options for an impoverished woman of her class.
We got to have a peek at her future when we see her having to meekly acquiesce to being befriended by the horrible Mrs. Elton.
Jane Fairfax could have all the “robust sense of self-worth” in the world–but it wouldn’t change the fact that she was poor and dependent.
Edited to add: Also, as we can see from Emma’s mischievous fake story about Jane’s illicit love for a married man, Jane’s dependent position was very likely to lead to her winding up in uncomfortable or compromising situations.
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Xantippe
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Jane Fairfax could easily have wound up in a MeToo situation.
Likewise (going to a different author) Jane Eyre.
Likewise (going to a different author) Jane Eyre.
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LilyM
Guest
I think Jane Eyre knew, after having lived and dealt with Rochester as long as she had, that he was not the type to cross that line. He comes to appreciate her mind and spirit enough to choose not to treat her as an object or an inferior, even in small matters like when he surprises her by asking if she enjoys working with him. And, as she admits, she deliberately kept him at arms-length during their courtship to avoid the risk of his coming to take her for granted.
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DarkLight
Guest
On the other hand, if she hadn’t met Mr. Rochester, she was in a very vulnerable situation. That could easily have
And of course, if you step away from upper-class heroines, lower class women were much more vulnerable. There’s some very old folk songs that talk about women being thrown out or even killed for refusing to sleep with their social betters.
And of course, if you step away from upper-class heroines, lower class women were much more vulnerable. There’s some very old folk songs that talk about women being thrown out or even killed for refusing to sleep with their social betters.
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Xantippe
Guest
Mr. Rochester is kinda sorta honorable, but he was planning to bigamously marry Jane.
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