Why must we be forgiven by a priest?

[DebChris]

FYI. A new thread has been started. The Wall Street Journal is reporting a rise in confessions not only in the Catholic Church but in Protestant and Evangelical Churches as well.
The Sacrament of Reconciliation is a healing Sacrament. It removes the “wigglers” that enter our lives and keep us from growing spiritually. It helps us restore our relationship with God and with each other.

Christ did not write any books. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Tradition is the word in its entirety. Scripture, which comes out of Tradition, is the written word of God. Scripture and Tradition together have been entrusted to the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church. The Magisterium is comprised of the bishops and pope, direct successors to the Apostles and is guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[brosam]

Let me go way out on a limb here and say that’s because it appears nowhere in Scripture and Brosam cannot bring himself to say so.

Perhaps it’s only found in the Greek translation.

“Trinity” doesn’t appear in scripture either. Do you deny that, too?

 

[brosam]

I just don’t believe in the Bible only. I believe in Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Magisterial Teaching of the Catholic Church.

So, what do you do when the teachings of your religion contradict scripture?

I don’t buy into Bible Alone or Sola Scriptura heretical doctrine.

Could you please show me where in the Bible you get the idea that it’s heresy?

 

[mercygate]

I see. So, you admit that your priests do claim this authority for themselves, even though the Bible says it belongs only to God?

That’s a pretty bold statement for a Roman Catholic.

Your presumption of knowledge you do not posses is becoming tiresome, bro.

Jesus committed the authority of forgiving and retaining sins to the Apostles in Jn 20:21-23.

Of COURSE only God forgives sins. The Apostles partake of this authority via the power of binding and loosing.

“'The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” . . . Christ Himself, through His Body, the Church, forgives sins in Confession. This is the normative way we receive absolution. (It is not the only possible way but it is the requisite way – by Christ’s own institution – for Christians in the ordinary course of life.)

Heck! Confession is almost the BEST thing about being Catholic! Anybody who doubts the presence of Jesus Christ in this sacrament just hasn’t been there!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

“Trinity” doesn’t appear in scripture either. Do you deny that, too?

So it’s possible to believe something to be true, even when that something isn’t explicitly spelled out in the Bible?

 

[pneuma07]

Well, that’s interesting, since when I asked Roman Catholics whether or not they believe in the analogy of scripture, not one of them gave me a straight answer and it even cause one of your own fellow Roman Catholics to admit that Roman Catholics don’t understand basic hermeneutics.

Dear Brosam,
I still wonder why you are not answering what I wrote about “the analogy of scripture”. Meanwhile, I’ll try to be as straight as I can.
Once you have fallen into the trap of Sola Scriptura ( which simply had to be postulated, in order to break openly with the Magisterium), it is not a long step postulating that “Bible only” interprets the Bible. As in other cases an “only” was unfortunately inserted into otherwise shared views. ( Do you agree that Scripture has to be considered *kath’olòn *? ). It was what reformers had to do, simply.
Certainly, you know that this principle is a mere corollary of Solascripturaism. But, let me understand, what is the exact status of this principle for you, that you have to “believe” it, rather than simply accepting and using it ? Do you also “believe” that the expression “analogy of Scripture” is in Scripture ?

 

[Mannyfit75]

So, what do you do when the teachings of your religion contradict scripture?

It doesn’t.

Could you please show me where in the Bible you get the idea that it’s heresy?

The Bible never say it is the sole rule of faith on all matters. A Protestant might 2 Tim 3:16 which states,

“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.” The Bible does teaches that but it didn’t say it alone is the sole role of faith in all matters.

The Bible does say that the Church is Pillar and Bulwark of Truth in 1 Tim 3:15. There are other passages in the Bible that support a authority Church vs. Bible authority.

In fact the Bible is a product of the Church’s Oral Tradition.

Mt 16:18-19 - upon this rock I will build my Church
Mt 18:17 - if he refuses to listen even to the Church…
Mt 28:18-20 - go baptize and teach all nations
Mk 16:15-16 - go to whole world and proclaim gospel
Lk 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me; rejects you, rejects me.
Jn 14:16, 26 - Holy Spirit with you always, teach/remind you of everything
Jn 16:13 - Spirit of truth will guide you to all truth.
1Tim 3:15 - Church is the pillar and foundation of truth

 

[Teflon93]

“Trinity” doesn’t appear in scripture either. Do you deny that, too?

Nope, but I’m not a sola scripturist.

Are you?

And BTW, on behalf of my Catholic brothers and sisters, you’re welcome for the Nicene Creed.

 

[Teflon93]

So it’s possible to believe something to be true, even when that something isn’t explicitly spelled out in the Bible?

Notice that Brosam still cannot bring himself to say, simply, “The analogy of Scripture” is not itself found within Scripture.

This is an example of what Mark Shea argues is typical of the insincere questioner; i.e., when presented with evidence contrary to one’s claims or helpful to another’s they refuse to acknowledge any such thing and change the subject.

 

[davidv]

So, what do you do when the teachings of your religion contradict scripture?

I don’t have to do anything, because this never happens. .

 

[brosam]

I don’t have to do anything, because this never happens. .

Purgatory, praying to the dead…

 

[brosam]

Notice that Brosam still cannot bring himself to say, simply, “The analogy of Scripture” is not itself found within Scripture.

(Edited)

I’ve already explained to you twice now that the words “anaolgy of scripture” are not found in scripture, just as the word “Trinity” is not found in scripture. The principle, however, is taught in scripture.

 

[davidv]

Purgatory

Just as easily explained with scripture as the Trinity.

, praying to the dead

False witness. The saints are alive and are not God.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Purgatory, praying to the dead…

Praying for the Dead is Biblical: Scriptural Proof Text:

Purgatory:

Mt 5:48 - be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect
Heb 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which cannot see God
Jam 3:2 - we all fall short in many respects
Rev 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven
1Jn 5:16-17 - degrees of sins distinguished
Jam 1:14-15 - when sin reaches maturity gives birth to death
2Sam 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for his sin
Mt 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny
Mt 12:32 - sin against Holy Spirit unforgiven in this age or next
Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgment day
2Macc 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin
1Cor 3:15 - suffer loss, but saved as through fire
1Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 - Jesus preached to spirits in prison
2Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus
1Cor 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead.

Intercessory Prayer of Saints

Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
*Saints dead, prayer is necromancy (Dt 18:10-11)
Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 - the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 - whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ’s Body cannot say to other parts, “I do not need you”.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

(Edited)

I’ve already explained to you twice now that the words “anaolgy of scripture” are not found in scripture, just as the word “Trinity” is not found in scripture. The principle, however, is taught in scripture.

Well then, please supply the verses upon which you base this “analogy of Scripture” theology.

Scripture teaches the principle of purgatory, too. But that’s for another thread, if you’re interested in learning about it I’ll be happy to discuss it with you. I have truly loved our discussions this week, brother, because of all the time I’ve gotten to spend searching the Scriptures. I thank you for allowing me the opportunity to hone my skills in always being “ready to give an answer.” (1 Peter 3:15) Bless you for that.

Catholics do not pray to the dead, we pray to the living saints around God’s throne. I pray that you know that “pray to” means “ask them to pray for you” just like I might ask you to pray for me, even though I can’t see you; and just as I am praying for you (interceding to God on your behalf) even though you can’t see me.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think brosam is giving us the doctrinal dance by asking us on our so called "unBiblica"l practices. We need to get back on the topic which is about forgiven of our sins by a priest.

 

[PaBa]

I’ve been studying the scriptures for twenty years and not one person has ever pointed out anything I’ve taught that is wrong. Likewise, I aced (and am acing) my seminary classes.

Now, if you’re going to say that I don’t understand Roman Catholic teaching, then that is to admit that this organization you claim is infallible, is God’s own mouthpiece, was incompetent to teach me in all of the years they had me.

So what? Are you implying that YOU are the pillar and bulwark of truth because you have studied the bible for 20 years? The Catholic Church has been studying the scriptures a lot longer than you my friend and about 1500 years longer than your eldest predecessor.

You are an apostate doing the devil’s work by trying to turn people away from the forgiveness of sins. What’s even worse is you’re using Holy Scripture to do it.

This is Pelagianism in a different disguise and a defiance of Jesus Christ. Repent, confess your sins, and come back home!

 

[Teflon93]

(Edited)

I’ve already explained to you twice now that the words “anaolgy of scripture” are not found in scripture, just as the word “Trinity” is not found in scripture. The principle, however, is taught in scripture.

Why don’t you post a link to the 1st time you said the words above?

And let’s have the Scripture reference for it. I’m afraid I no longer trust you when you say something is taught in Scripture, given your track record here.