Why not leave the Church?

[lotusblossom]

Not wanting to hijack the “Who Can Call Themselves Catholic” thread, I’ve had a thought floating through my mind for about two weeks now. My husband and I went to visit a friend of his, and we got into the conversation about how today we distinguish between a “conservative Catholic” vs a “liberal Catholic,” when really there is no such thing. So, this leads to my question…

Why don’t people who do not agree with the Church leave? I know there are many who leave the Catholic Church, but I think most do because of misunderstanding or because of people in the Church, not the Church itself. But what about those who are calling for “reform” such as women priests, accepted contraception, and homosexual marriage?

It’s one thing to question your faith or to not necessarily agree but to really research it, but it’s another to publicly claim certain things not in line with Catholic teaching and stay in the Church and try to work towards changing these 2000 yr old teachings. To me, it seems that one could go out and find a church that “fit” with their views or even start their own. Are there certain things keeping them in the Church or do they just want to bring down what has been standing strong for so long?

I am really curious to hear your opinions.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Did I see this discussion before? Was it maybe in Acts.

 

[Fidelis]

You can’t look into people’s minds, but my considered opinion is that most of these people have a particular agenda that they hold near and dear about how they want to change the Church. If they placed themselves out of the Church, they would forfeit a lot of the attention and even influence they might have had by remaining members.

 

[Della]

From my, admittedly, limited experience talking to Catholics who want women priests, etc. I’d say that they think they are truly Catholic in what they stand for and that the Church is wrong and so it’s their duty to change the Church by the same means many change governments–by dissent and teaching dissent.

To them orthodoxy is a dirty word–one that means calcified, oppressive, hard-hearted, obstructionist, obsolete, etc., etc. They cite the fact that the Church has changed many things down through the centuries, and are always able to provide a list of those things. Some of the things they list actually never changed. They simply misunderstand the teaching or they don’t seem to grasp how the development of doctrine works. And for the rest, they were mere disciplines that the Church changed and still changes as needed.

What these folks need, IMHO, is to stop thinking of the Church in political terms, but see it as God’s instrument in the world for bringing salvation to mankind. They are stuck on what they think are “rights” and the Church as a human institution that can be molded according to what society says is right. They are wedded to the age, and as G. K. Chesterton put it so well, “He who is wedded to the age will find himself a widower in the next.”

 

[Franciscan]

American Catholics struggle with the hierarchy thing. They don’t see the Church as anything more than a human institution. They feel that they are within their “right” to debate/protest as if the Church were a democracy.

We assume that we are “free to choose” and no one has a right to tell us what to do. It’s an attitude that is part of the American ethos. We instill this sense of individualism, liberty, create your own rules, type of thinking.

The idea that we humbly, qietly submit to a hiearchical authority is scary to American Catholics.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If they leave, they feel guilty because deep inside they know the Church is right…they just don’t like it.

If they stay and fight to get the Church to change, then they get want they want without the guilt.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Years ago, I was teaching a freshman college history course. We wound up diccussing a Papal Interdict, and I explained that priests in the Interdicted country couildn’s say mass publicly. One kid said, “Well, I’d say it anyway.”

I looked at him. “What good would it do?”

He thought about it a minute and said, “Oh.”

We have mature, educated Catholics who don’t understand what I was able to explain to a college freshman in a single sentence.

 

[Ignatius]

Years ago, I was teaching a freshman college history course. We wound up diccussing a Papal Interdict, and I explained that priests in the Interdicted country couildn’s say mass publicly. One kid said, “Well, I’d say it anyway.”

I looked at him. “What good would it do?”

He thought about it a minute and said, “Oh.”

We have mature, educated Catholics who don’t understand what I was able to explain to a college freshman in a single sentence.

Sadly, too true.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

American Catholics struggle with the hierarchy thing. They don’t see the Church as anything more than a human institution. They feel that they are within their “right” to debate/protest as if the Church were a democracy.

We assume that we are “free to choose” and no one has a right to tell us what to do. It’s an attitude that is part of the American ethos. We instill this sense of individualism, liberty, create your own rules, type of thinking.

The idea that we humbly, qietly submit to a hiearchical authority is scary to American Catholics.

Are you blaming us for the great schism too??? ( let see we started in 1692, the schism was 1054, oh well)

 

[Franciscan]

Are you blaming us for the great schism too??? ( let see we started in 1692, the schism was 1054, oh well)

I’d say we began in 1776 with The War of Independence. My point was that we are constantly fighting a war of independence against any type of authoritative institution. Back then it was the monarchy of England. Today, for many Catholics, it’s the hierarchy of the Church.

 

[Cardinalsong]

American Catholics struggle with the hierarchy thing. They don’t see the Church as anything more than a human institution. They feel that they are within their “right” to debate/protest as if the Church were a democracy.

We assume that we are “free to choose” and no one has a right to tell us what to do. It’s an attitude that is part of the American ethos. We instill this sense of individualism, liberty, create your own rules, type of thinking.

The idea that we humbly, qietly submit to a hiearchical authority is scary to American Catholics.

You hit the nail right on the head, Franciscan.

We Americans have a “Don’t tread on me” mindset, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It just shouldn’t apply to the Church.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I’d say we began in 1776 with The War of Independence. My point was that we are constantly fighting a war of independence against any type of authoritative institution. Back then it was the monarchy of England. Today, for many Catholics, it’s the hierarchy of the Church.

There is a famous old quote (paraphrased) *** At seventeen I found myself the son of a stupid man, by thirty I was amazed at how much the old man had learned. ***Americans really are not different. They are vocal. But they are both seventeen and thirty.

 

[jmcrae]

You can’t look into people’s minds, but my considered opinion is that most of these people have a particular agenda that they hold near and dear about how they want to change the Church. If they placed themselves out of the Church, they would forfeit a lot of the attention and even influence they might have had by remaining members.

True - nobody today even looks twice at female and homosexual Anglican priests. They could easily join up with the Anglicans and have whatever they want, but what they really want is to call attention to themselves.

Also, becoming Anglican would entail actually going to Seminary, doing a lot of studying, and then actually getting ordained - maybe they’d rather have the “out” that, “Well, I feel called to the priesthood, but the Church won’t let me,” instead of taking the risk of joining a church that will actually let them test their vocation, only to find out that maybe they aren’t really called to the priesthood.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’d say we began in 1776 with The War of Independence. My point was that we are constantly fighting a war of independence against any type of authoritative institution. Back then it was the monarchy of England. Today, for many Catholics, it’s the hierarchy of the Church.

We had a rebellion a century earlier – Bacon’s Rebellion. He chased the Governor of Virginia to the Eastern Shore.

But that’s not it. It’s all about lack of maturity and selfishness. Those who demand the Church change put themselves and their agenda ahead of Goid’s agenda.

 

[Paganus]

We had a rebellion a century earlier – Bacon’s Rebellion. He chased the Governor of Virginia to the Eastern Shore.

But that’s not it. It’s all about lack of maturity and selfishness. Those who demand the Church change put themselves and their agenda ahead of Goid’s agenda.

Bacon’s Rebellion was in 1676.

Virginians were questioning the authority of the Church more than a century before that. Virginia’s first martyrs were killed by Indians in January 1571, probably near what later became Jamestown. The leader, a converted Indian called “Don Luis”, had even been taken to Spain and introduced to King Philip. The issue at that time was one of polygamy, which was permitted for chiefs. The Jesuits said “no” and they were martyred for it. Only the altar boy, Alonso de Olmos, was spared.

:getholy: Father Baptista de Segura, SJ
:getholy: Father Luis Quiros, SJ
:getholy: Brother Gabriel Gomez
:getholy: Brother Sancho de Zaballos (novice)
:getholy: Brother Juan Baptista Mendez
:getholy: Brother Pedro de Linares
:getholy: Brother Cristobal Redondo
:getholy: Brother Gabriel de Solis