Why Prostestants faith in Bible only when tradition is grounded in Scripture?

[Sixtus]

My question to a Protestant is this. If the Bible is the complete authority to your faith, and if there is no authority outside of the Bible, then who had the authority to determine what books were to be in the Bible?

Why do you accept the Bible as the absolute truth but reject the teachings of her who composed it? If CC cannot be trusted in small things, why do you trust the Bible she constructed, which is after all, started as just a collection of Catholic Documents?

The Bible, which is part of our Catholic heritage, uses the word “Tradition” in a positive sense in II Thessalonians 2:14, where Saint Paul urges them to hold fast to all the Traditions, whether they came by word of mouth or by letter, and when he praises the Corinthians in I Corinthians 11:1, or the Thessalonians in II Thessalonians 3:6, for holding fast to Tradition.

So the Bible itself testifies that what Jesus and the Apostles taught was handed down in two ways - in a written way in the Bible, and in an oral way, PRIOR TO the Bible being written. Both of these ways, in fact, are Tradition.

 

[SORROWS]

Very well written post Sixtus.

The Catholic Church came before the Bible and tradition began with the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ.



Sorrows

 

[simbagizmo]

My question to a Protestant is this. If the Bible is the complete authority to your faith, and if there is no authority outside of the Bible, then who had the authority to determine what books were to be in the Bible?

God has the authority

Why do you accept the Bible as the absolute truth but reject the teachings of her who composed it?

God inspired the creation of the Bible. But it was Christains who composed it.

If CC cannot be trusted in small things, why do you trust the Bible she constructed, which is after all, started as just a collection of Catholic Documents?

The Bible was constructed under the guidance of God, and started as a collection of documents inspired by God and written by Christains who believed in Jesus Christ and salvation through Him.

The Bible, which is part of our Catholic heritage

The Bible is part of all Christain’s heritage

, uses the word “Tradition” in a positive sense in II Thessalonians 2:14, where Saint Paul urges them to hold fast to all the Traditions, whether they came by word of mouth or by letter, and when he praises the Corinthians in I Corinthians 11:1, or the Thessalonians in II Thessalonians 3:6, for holding fast to Tradition.

True, but Paul also wrote to Timothy

2 Timothy 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

So the Bible itself testifies that what Jesus and the Apostles taught was handed down in two ways - in a written way in the Bible, and in an oral way, PRIOR TO the Bible being written. Both of these ways, in fact, are Tradition.

I have no problem with traditions. But if traditions is teaching doctrine and and Gospel message, this must be held against Scripture to test its validity. If it fails to teach the pure Gospel message, then it corrupts the messages and becomes invalid.

Matthew 15
2 “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
3 And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 "For God said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,’ and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.’
5 "But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,”
6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 “You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
9 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”

The sad thing I hear from my Catholic friends and family is the total obedience to anything the RC leadership says. They do not hold up the teachings (traditions) to scripture, they just accept. They do not even attempt to take the time to use Scripture as Paul stated in 2 Timothy 3:16. Paul also states we are to test ourselves in the faith.

2 Corinthians 13
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?

Man will continue to fall away from God, and it does not take long. Read about how quickly the Isrealites fell away after God led them out of Egypt. Jesus constantly stated where the teachings of the Jewish church leaders were wrong by referring to what was written. The Bible is unchanging, men’s traditions are in constant evolution. And this evolution always leads away from God.

 

[simbagizmo]

Very well written post Sixtus.

The Catholic Church came before the Bible and tradition began with the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ.



Sorrows

No disrespect intended here, but where is God in the credit for creating His Holy Word? The Bible is actually the Word of God, not the word of the roman catholic church.

The Catholic Church came before the Bible

No disrespect intended, but the Bible was first written by Moses, and the Jews called it the Tanakh. This was way before the roman catholic church was established.

and tradition began with the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ

Again, no disrespect intended, but tradition began “in the beginning” (John 1:1), not with Jesus Christ on Earth. God was teaching his Traditions to Adam and Eve onward. And the traditions taught by Jesus Christ were from the written Traditions found in the Hebrew Bible. So Traditions were being taught way before the birth of Jesus Christ. In fact it was the traditions of the Jewish church that Jesus constantly criticized as stated in Matthew 15:3.

I have a question. In any church you have false teachers. It is inevitable. God says so. How do you determine a teaching from your church leaders to be true or false? Under what authority would you turn to test if the church leaders are true teachers or Pharisees?

This is just a question of curiosity and I am not asking this in order to debate or cause trouble. The basis for asking this question is anyone who does not use the Bible as the sole authority, and uses the church leadership as the authority, how will you know if the church leadership becomes like the Pharisees and starts replacing the commandments of God with the traditions of man. Please read 2 Peter.

Matthew 15:3 And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

 

[kinnon06]

Funny how it has been a year and a half and still no responses to these last posts…

I will be honest here and say that I was raised in a conservative Baptist church. I was never really shown much Roman Catholic teachings other the things I have personally studied on it. I would like to understand more on the thinking, teaching and reasoning of this religion.
But to me, thats all it seems to be; a “religion.” A religion being a set of rules, standards, and “traditions” that people are to follow in order to receive grace or appease their god.
That is never what the New Testament church was meant to be. The Old Testament followers fulfilled received their justification by faith through works, which is seen through Abraham in Romans 4. The New Testament Church however receive our justification by the blood of Jesus Christ and nothing else. No tradition gives me grace. It is simply a relationship with an Almighty God in which I have accepted his son’s punishment for my sin and in return I have given him my life, not because I have to but because I want to. I want to give Him everything I can for He deserves all we have. There is no amount of works or praise that I could do in order to fulfill what He has done for me. If there was a way to enter heaven through my works, then there would be no reason for Christ to have come, suffered, and died. I love Jesus Christ with everything in me and want to serve Him for my entire life. The Church is not an authority I am held under, rather the Church is the body of believers; my brothers and sisters in Christ who encourage me, help me, teach me, and likewise I for them.
Now that my background and beliefs are seen, onto the topic at hand. Scripture. I have done some study on where the Bible came from (the council of Nicea,etc.) and was a bit confused. I couldn’t understand how these books, written by man and placed together by man could be so perfect and infallible. Catholic or Protestant it is a hard concept to grasp. I have seen the scriptures that refer to them being “God-Breathed” but it still confused me on how this could happen. Then I realized. If God is a true all-power and Almighty God (which I know He is) then wouldn’t this God have the ability to write a book through man, have these books placed together through man, and even have them withstand the tests of time. I believe this is so. I believe the nature of the Bible is inherent! I would love to explain more but I will wait to see a rebuttal.

 

[guanophore]

Funny how it has been a year and a half and still no responses to these last posts…

I think it has to do with location. The other thing is that most Protestants don’t have any idea where the Bible came from, or how it was assembled. Everyone agrees it is inspired by the HS, and inerrant, but how that truth came to be known is a part of history that has not been studied by many.

I will be honest here and say that I was raised in a conservative Baptist church. I was never really shown much Roman Catholic teachings other the things I have personally studied on it. I would like to understand more on the thinking, teaching and reasoning of this religion.

I commend you for your open mindedness.

But to me, thats all it seems to be; a “religion.” A religion being a set of rules, standards, and “traditions” that people are to follow in order to receive grace or appease their god.

I understand how this can happen.

That is never what the New Testament church was meant to be. The Old Testament followers fulfilled received their justification by faith through works, which is seen through Abraham in Romans 4. The New Testament Church however receive our justification by the blood of Jesus Christ and nothing else.

I don’t agree with this. I don’t think that God’s plan of salvation has changed. I think this is what Romans is saying. The OT people were saved by grace, through faith, just as the NT people are. In both cases we need to participate in our salvation by bearing fruit that befits repentance.

No tradition gives me grace.

Do you not experience God’s grace through the reading of Scripture? From reading your posts, it seems clear that you do. Scripture is the best known Catholic Tradition.

It is simply a relationship with an Almighty God in which I have accepted his son’s punishment for my sin and in return I have given him my life, not because I have to but because I want to. I want to give Him everything I can for He deserves all we have. There is no amount of works or praise that I could do in order to fulfill what He has done for me.

This is true, but it is also true that He is glorified in our good works. Our deeds, done in love for Him, bear fruit to the world that He is real.

If there was a way to enter heaven through my works, then there would be no reason for Christ to have come, suffered, and died. I love Jesus Christ with everything in me and want to serve Him for my entire life. The Church is not an authority I am held under, rather the Church is the body of believers; my brothers and sisters in Christ who encourage me, help me, teach me, and likewise I for them.

There is no difference between the two, kinnon06. Jesus appointed Authority to the Church, the Body of Believers. The Church is where He is, and how He reaches into the world to draw all men unto Himself. The Church and the Body are the same.

Now that my background and beliefs are seen, onto the topic at hand. Scripture. I have done some study on where the Bible came from (the council of Nicea,etc.) and was a bit confused. I couldn’t understand how these books, written by man and placed together by man could be so perfect and infallible. Catholic or Protestant it is a hard concept to grasp. I have seen the scriptures that refer to them being “God-Breathed” but it still confused me on how this could happen. Then I realized. If God is a true all-power and Almighty God (which I know He is) then wouldn’t this God have the ability to write a book through man, have these books placed together through man, and even have them withstand the tests of time. I believe this is so. I believe the nature of the Bible is inherent! I would love to explain more but I will wait to see a rebuttal.

You won’t get any rebuttal from me!

 

[reteeks21]

I think it has to do with location. The other thing is that most Protestants don’t have any idea where the Bible came from, or how it was assembled. Everyone agrees it is inspired by the HS, and inerrant, but how that truth came to be known is a part of history that has not been studied by many.

I commend you for your open mindedness.

I understand how this can happen.

I don’t agree with this. I don’t think that God’s plan of salvation has changed. I think this is what Romans is saying. The OT people were saved by grace, through faith, just as the NT people are. In both cases we need to participate in our salvation by bearing fruit that befits repentance.

Do you not experience God’s grace through the reading of Scripture? From reading your posts, it seems clear that you do. Scripture is the best known Catholic Tradition.

This is true, but it is also true that He is glorified in our good works. Our deeds, done in love for Him, bear fruit to the world that He is real.

There is no difference between the two, kinnon06. Jesus appointed Authority to the Church, the Body of Believers. The Church is where He is, and how He reaches into the world to draw all men unto Himself. The Church and the Body are the same.

You won’t get any rebuttal from me!

Abraham was not justified by doing anything. Paul makes it clear that he was justified because he believed God. His salvation was not dependent on what he did. He was circumsized as a seal, not as the justification itself. The promise to Abraham was not based on following the law but on faith. Paul makes that perfectly clear throughout the Romans we he references Abraham being justified by faith.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Scripture is the best known Catholic Tradition.

Just because you claim that the apostles were catholics.

Its just as silly as the claim that Jesus, Moses & Abraham were Muslims.

Religious nonsense.

 

[agangbern]

It is simply a relationship with an Almighty God in which I have accepted his son’s punishment for my sin and in return I have given him my life, not because I have to but because I want to. I want to give Him everything I can for He deserves all we have.

That’s great! But we should know that the “want to”, when it is clung unto, is transformed into a “have to”. When that “want to” is recognized by God, a “covenant” is establish between Him and the “wanter”. God will fulfill His part of the covenant; but the “wanter” has also the duty to fulfill his. Jesus said, “If you abide in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” And what is one of His words that the Holy Spirit wrote through the hands of St. Paul, and therefore the “wanter” must abide? This one: “Obey your superiors and be subject to them, for they keep watch as having to render an account of your souls; so that they may do this with joy, and not with grief, for that would not be expedient for you.” (Hebrews 13:17)

 

[Steadfast]

My question to a Protestant is this. If the Bible is the complete authority to your faith, and if there is no authority outside of the Bible, then who had the authority to determine what books were to be in the Bible?

Why do you accept the Bible as the absolute truth but reject the teachings of her who composed it? If CC cannot be trusted in small things, why do you trust the Bible she constructed, which is after all, started as just a collection of Catholic Documents?

The Bible, which is part of our Catholic heritage, uses the word “Tradition” in a positive sense in II Thessalonians 2:14, where Saint Paul urges them to hold fast to all the Traditions, whether they came by word of mouth or by letter, and when he praises the Corinthians in I Corinthians 11:1, or the Thessalonians in II Thessalonians 3:6, for holding fast to Tradition.

So the Bible itself testifies that what Jesus and the Apostles taught was handed down in two ways - in a written way in the Bible, and in an oral way, PRIOR TO the Bible being written. Both of these ways, in fact, are Tradition.

Most Protestants do not actually believe that ‘there is no authority outside of the Bible’.

Most Protestants admit that the Church has competence to exercise authority in a great number of areas, including the recognition and publication of the canon.

So, for MOST Protestants, this is a straw man.

The options are not a completely incompetent church on one hand and a completely competent one on the other. This is a false contrast.

Most Protestants actually believe that the church is the divinely instituted means by which the Word of God is to be carried into the world and wherein it is to be preserved and obeyed.

 

[NDfan]

I think it has to do with location. The other thing is that most Protestants don’t have any idea where the Bible came from, or how it was assembled. Everyone agrees it is inspired by the HS, and inerrant, but how that truth came to be known is a part of history that has not been studied by many.

Guanophore I can assure you I have excellent knowledge of where the Bible came from, how it was assembled etc. etc. etc. Anytime you would like to engage in a good spirited discussion of this and how it relates to your points I would be happy to oblige you

PEACE

 

[Steadfast]

I think NDFan’s point is well taken.

MOST Protestants probably don’t know where the Bible came from, the long agonizing process by which the NT canon was eventually recognized, the struggle that still pertains with two established OT canons, both with excellent arguments and pedigrees holding the field in the West…

The assumption that the church somehow DETERMINED the canon is what many educated Protestants have difficulty with. The books that are canonical are not canonical because the Church decided the are, they are canonical because they are inspired, and the church is the appropriate agency for recognizing and defining that.

There is a world of difference here…

 

[NDfan]

I think NDFan’s point is well taken.

MOST Protestants probably don’t know where the Bible came from, the long agonizing process by which the NT canon was eventually recognized, the struggle that still pertains with two established OT canons, both with excellent arguments and pedigrees holding the field in the West…

The assumption that the church somehow DETERMINED the canon is what many educated Protestants have difficulty with. The books that are canonical are not canonical because the Church decided the are, they are canonical because they are inspired, and the church is the appropriate agency for recognizing and defining that.

There is a world of difference here…

Steadfast I’ve actually found just as many Roman Catholics that don’t know where the Bible came from. Coming from 40 years in the RCC I’ve met more than my share of those that not only hardly ever read the Bible outside of hearing readings in church, but also have never opened 1 page of scripture. So knowing where it came from is quite secondary to the problem of actually reading it. Prior to 1500 or so if you did not know Greek or Latin and did not have access to the lectern you could not even think of reading scripture.

 

[Steadfast]

So knowing where it came from is quite secondary to the problem of actually reading it.

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[sodak]

Abraham was not justified by doing anything. Paul makes it clear that he was justified because he believed God. His salvation was not dependent on what he did. He was circumsized as a seal, not as the justification itself. The promise to Abraham was not based on following the law but on faith. Paul makes that perfectly clear throughout the Romans we he references Abraham being justified by faith.

Abraham was justified by his works - see James 2:21.

Contradiction? Not if you listen to the Catholic church’s teachings.

 

[reteeks21]

Abraham was justified by his works - see James 2:21.

Contradiction? Not if you listen to the Catholic church’s teachings.

So, you just throw out everything Paul said about him, and us, being justified right out the window? That would seem like the convenient thing to do.

 

[sodak]

So, you just throw out everything Paul said about him, and us, being justified right out the window? That would seem like the convenient thing to do.

Not at all. I’m trying to do several things.

1. The Bible needs to be taken in it’s totality, not a bunch of cherry picked verses. You don’t get to choose Paul and ignore James, as so many Protestants love to do.
2. You are wrong. The Bible verse clearly states that Abraham was justified by his works. No if’s, and’s or but’s. ** You need to acknowledge that you were wrong and in direct contradiction with Scripture.**
3. This appears to be a direct contradiction to Paul’s writing.

But wait a minute, this isn’t Paul v.s. James. This is God writing through 2 human authors. In order to understand this, you need to turn to the Church for guidance, and it has excellent guidance, straight from the source.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

I have no problem with traditions. But if traditions is teaching doctrine and and Gospel message, this must be held against Scripture to test its validity. If it fails to teach the pure Gospel message, then it corrupts the messages and becomes invalid.

...
Man will continue to fall away from God, and it does not take long. Read about how quickly the Isrealites fell away after God led them out of Egypt. Jesus constantly stated where the teachings of the Jewish church leaders were wrong by referring to what was written. The Bible is unchanging, men’s traditions are in constant evolution. And this evolution always leads away from God.

where does scripture state these two things? What IS “pure Gospel”—according to whom? And who says that traditions are in constant evolution leading away from God?
I believe it is a matter of Faith. I have faith in the Church Jesus set up and said would last until the end of time under His guidance and not even the gates of Hell would prevail against it.

 

[Layp3rs0n]

I think Scott Hahn said it best: Sola Scriptura is not scriptural! :bible1:
:tiphat: