Why reconsecrate?

[Jen7]

If Lucia said Pope John Paul II’s implicit consecration of Russia was accepted in heaven, why do so many people think it didn’t happen? Or needs to be redone? Or something?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

If Lucia said Pope John Paul II’s implicit consecration of Russia was accepted in heaven, why do so many people think it didn’t happen? Or needs to be redone? Or something?

Let’s just say there are various schools of thought.

The most common idea of what the “consecration of Russia” means is that the Pope will specifically mention Russia by name (not just “the world” of which Russia is a part) and will do the consecration in tandem with each bishop doing the same thing, on the same day, in his cathedral. I don’t know what would happen if X percent of the bishops, for whatever reason, “just didn’t do it”. As far as I am aware, they have never been asked. Obviously it has never happened.

This “collegial consecration” was long promoted by the Blue Army. I don’t know if they still do — there’s something about John Paul II having done it in “spiritual union” with the bishops, which isn’t quite the same thing — but they promoted this about 35 years ago and well prior to that.

 

[Jen7]

Wow that’s more complicated than I thought!

 

[MNathaniel]

I mean, the thing that has always confused me (maybe someone can enlighten me) is – regardless of what someone concludes about whether the consecration has happened – why anybody would believe that Sister Lucia’s opinion particularly counts about the point.

Hear me out. I mean no disrespect to her (I think she was put in a weird situation and I can only imagine the pressure she might have felt under to give an answer to those in the hierarchy asking her to make a public statement affirming their actions, and her having made vows of obedience to boot).

But she was a reported witness to a fixed set of visions back when she was a kid. She wasn’t an alleged ongoing TV-psychic-spirit-channeller. There was no new data beyond what she’d already told people. By no account was Mary still visiting adult Lucia in her convent telling her “By the way, this means this and that means that.” The degree of knowledge Lucia got from her visions was very surface (she believed a figure in a vision was pope but only because he visually appeared to be a “bishop dressed in white”, and she reported specific words of Mary but didn’t always know what they meant.)

So with all due respect, unless Mary initially told child-Lucia exactly which version of the consecration would ‘take’, or unless Mary visited Lucia decades later to say “By the way, last couple times were no good but this time the consecration went dandy” (and Lucia never suggested either situation was the case, so far as I know), it just seems… weird, to me. To treat Lucia like some kind of ongoing Mary-channeller, able to go beyond her original role of just witnessing and reporting what happened when she was a kid, to now claiming to be able to interpret and speak for Mary beyond what Mary told her at the time of the visions.

Like, honestly I imagine Lucia might just have applied her own reasoning at that point, and thought “Yeah I can see how the whole world does include Russia, and I believe the pope means well, and while I have no idea why they won’t just do it straightforwardly it would be enormously inconvenient to say it didn’t work again… so sure, it probably worked, I imagine Mary’s fine with this.”

But like, again. Lucia wasn’t a Greek oracle live-channelling a ghost. I have simply never understood the part of the story where anyone thinks it’s relevant data beyond mere sidebar interest to ask Lucia’s opinion about Mary’s opinion about something that presumably Lucia and Mary didn’t discuss in such specific detail.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Because they’re the usual conspiracy types with hangups who think they know better than St. Pope JPII and Servant of God Sister Lucia.

Apart from questionable organizations like Fatima Center, there are also unapproved private revelations insisting that the consecration still hasn’t been done right. Some people fall for all this stuff.

 

[ZemD]

I think Lucia wrote in her diary she was visited by Jesus as an adult women, I don’t remember if he told her anything about the consecration though I would have to read the diary again.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I mean, the thing that has always confused me (maybe someone can enlighten me) is – regardless of what someone concludes about whether the consecration has happened – why anybody would believe that Sister Lucia’s opinion particularly counts about the point.

For one thing, because she was reportedly misquoted by the Spanish magazine of the Blue Army as saying at some point after 1984 that the Consecration of Russia had not been done.

Therefore it was necessary for her to speak up and tell those inquiring that it had indeed been done. I am quite certain she would have preferred to not have to speak on the matter, as she didn’t exactly go seeking the public eye (her religious order directed that the members avoid contact with the outside world), but as I said she had apparently been misquoted, which wasn’t surprising given the number of groups with an agenda to complain that the consecration wasn’t done.

As for her being “under pressure”, this is a woman who, when she was a child, withstood tremendous pressure from her own mother (who beat her) and even the police to recant her visions. I don’t think she would have been pressured into giving out misinformation as a grown adult much farther along in her spiritual life.

I find a lot of the rest of your post to be disrespectful to Sister Lucia and embody a lot of things I don’t like about Fatima discussions, so I’ll refrain from responding to it further.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think Lucia wrote in her diary she was visited by Jesus as an adult women

She did receive additional apparitions of Mother Mary and the Christ Child at Pontevedra, Spain as an adult (about age 18), which resulted in the Five First Saturdays devotion, which is approved by the Church.

I am not aware of her having other visits from Jesus or him saying anything about the Consecration of Russia.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

She did receive additional apparitions of Mother Mary and the Christ Child at Pontevedra, Spain as an adult (about age 18), which resulted in the Five First Saturdays devotion, which is approved by the Church.

I am not aware of her having other visits from Jesus or him saying anything about the Consecration of Russia.

This seems to be a magisterially loyal site:

https://www.piercedhearts.org/heart...ns/fatima/fatima_lucia_later_apparitions.html

In June 1929, Lucia, already a religious of St. Dorothy, describes the following apparitionPlease Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

" . . . . suddenly the entire convent Chapel was illuminated in a supernatural light, and a Cross of light appeared over the altar and reached the ceiling… [snipped due to character limits]… It was Our Lady of Fatima, with her Immaculate Heart in her left hand, without thorns or roses, but with a crown of thorns and flames. Underneath the left arm on the Cross, big letters, similar to crystal water came down to the altar forming these words: Grace and Mercy.’

Lucia said : “I understood it was the mystery of the Blessed Trinity that was revealed to me… The Blessed Virgin told me: The time has come in which God asks the Holy Father that in union with all the bishops of the world the consecration of Russia to my Heart be made, I promise salvation through this means.’ Preventing diffusion of error and advance its conversion.”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Consecration of Russia by the Holy Fathers

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) Dec. 1940-------Lucia receives permission to write the Holy Father Pio XII, asking for this consecration.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) Oct. 1942------Pope Pío XII consecrates the world mentioning specially Russia.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) July 1952------Special Consecration only of Russia.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) 1965------------Pope Paul VI also consecrates Russia.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) 1984------------Pope John Paul II consecrates the world to the Immaculate Heart.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) 2000------------Pope John Paul II consecrates the III Millennium to the Immaculate Heart.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Many times these consecrations were considered to be incomplete because they were not done in union with the bishops of the world. The consecration that John Paul II, did of the world in 1984, in Rome before the image of Our Lady of Fatima was according to Lucia, in conformity with Mary’s desires. All the bishops of the world were formally invited by the Holy Father John Paul II to unite to him in this consecration.

As I said, various schools of thought.

 

[Inbonum]

This could help to understand some things
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...on_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Ah yes, you’re correct. She did see a vision of the Trinity, I believe that was in Tuy, not Pontevedra. I forgot about that one. My bad. Thanks for pointing that out.

Additionally there were later private revelations to her from Christ but I didn’t think they were visions (I thought they were locutions, I could be wrong) and also I don’t think they said anything about the Consecration of Russia.

In any event, I feel confident that with both St. Pope John Paul II and Servant of God Sister Lucia (who will no doubt be canonized herself in due time) confirming the consecration was done as of 1984, it was done, and that’s the end of the matter as far as I am concerned.

Sister Lucia herself expressed during her lifetime an annoyance with the people who kept focusing on the “secrets” and other things about these apparitions instead of just praying as our Lady asked. I do not focus on silly conspiracy theories but simply try to pray and trust in Our Lady.

 

[ZemD]

@Tis_Bearself @HomeschoolDad Thank you for the information, I read the diary a few years ago. I thought I remember Lucia saying she saw a man digging through the trash looking for food outside her convent and then she realized it was Jesus and he spoke to her. I may not be remembering correctly or maybe was being allegorical and I took it literally. If that is not in there at all I definitely need more sleep.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I know she said that she was taking out the garbage and saw a child who spoke to her, then she realized it was the Christ Child. That was at Pontevedra so it was part of the apparitions of Mary and the Christ Child that I mentioned.

Homeschool Dad pointed out that she later saw the vision of the Trinity which included Christ on the Cross, at Tuy.

I may be forgetting some others as well. Sister Lucia had a very rich (and long) spiritual life.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Ah yes, you’re correct. She did see a vision of the Trinity, I believe that was in Tuy, not Pontevedra. I forgot about that one. My bad. Thanks for pointing that out.

Additionally there were later private revelations to her from Christ but I didn’t think they were visions (I thought they were locutions, I could be wrong) and also I don’t think they said anything about the Consecration of Russia.

In any event, I feel confident that with both St. Pope John Paul II and Servant of God Sister Lucia (who will no doubt be canonized herself in due time) confirming the consecration was done as of 1984, it was done, and that’s the end of the matter as far as I am concerned.

Sister Lucia herself expressed during her lifetime an annoyance with the people who kept focusing on the “secrets” and other things about these apparitions instead of just praying as our Lady asked. I do not focus on silly conspiracy theories but simply try to pray and trust in Our Lady.

If the “conversion of Russia” is neither accomplished nor even just ongoing, it would come as news to me.

I have to think that, during the Soviet years, many faithful Catholics got a kind of “tunnel vision”, to the effect of (a) the consecration has to be done one way, and one way only, the Pope and all of the bishops have to do it precisely this way, on the same day, “one-two-three-GO!” (I always had the fear of some bishops saying “no, I’m not going to do it” — bishops have been known to buck the Holy Father before — and what happens then?) and then (b) Russia will, at the very least, unite her Orthodox Church with Rome, come under the omophor of the Holy Father (so to speak), or, as the most “tunnelly” of the tunnel-vision folks might think, drop Eastern Rite Christianity entirely and become Catholics of the Latin Rite. (Never mind that the latter would run totally against historic Russian culture and mentality.)

What we got instead, was that Communism just “cratered”, that “great Soviet Union”, “welded forever to stand” (said her anthem), came apart like a jigsaw puzzle pushed over the edge of a tabletop, and then the Russian Orthodox Church, while admittedly imperfect to this day, in time re-emerged as arguably the dominant force in Russian society.

Aside from communion with Rome — give it time, Our Lady has mediated great miracles before and she may do it again — what more could you ask for?

 

[Jen7]

Yes I had heard she had visions later in life. I have wondered if they were ever approved, though?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

what more could you ask for?

For a long time I thought the same. Then 2020 happened. Now I kind of feel like we’re going to see whether the consecration actually happened or not as we see how 2021 unfolds. But I would just feel more comfortable about 2021 if someone could tell me that we KNOW Russia was consecrated! Ya know?

Also, why on EARTH hasn’t it already been done explicitly?? I mean, it wasn’t a lot to ask. The rest of the Church was asked to pray the rosary and do 1st Saturday devotions and we have been doing this. I don’t understand why all the Popes haven’t explicitly consecrated Russia for good measure! What’s not to love?!

The “official” word from the Church is that the Consecration has been done, and by implication, we aren’t supposed to worry about it any further.

I hope I will not violate any CAF guidelines, or even “unspoken rules”, in saying so, but I think the Collegial Consecration (Pope and bishops in tandem, the same day, not just in a kind of gauzy, nebulous “spiritual union”) was not done, because there was a fear it would been seen as both hostile and volatile towards, first, the Soviets, then, after they fell, the Russian Orthodox Church. With regard to the former, it would have been “in your face” in the extreme, and might have made life that much harder for Catholics in the USSR and the East bloc. With regard to the latter, it could be seen as kind of imperious, “move over now, put us Latin papalists in the driver’s seat, and let us save you from yourselves”, not the most ecumenical gesture that the Church could possibly make. Exposing Catholics in the East bloc to possible persecution and even death, that is something to take into account. Angering the Russian Orthodox, it might impede coming into communion with one another — at least in the short run — but we could always take the view “look, this isn’t anything ‘against’ you in any way whatsoever, far from it, it’s just that Our Lady of Fatima asked for this, and we’re just honoring her request, can you blame us for that?”. And if the Church did do this, and if the “conversion of Russia” then took place in the form of Russian Orthodoxy’s heart being softened and agreeing to come into communion with Rome (and for Rome to come into communion with her, a two-way street), well, then, the proof would be in the pudding, and we might yet see the “Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary” (assuming it hasn’t already happened or is an ongoing thing that is unfolding at this moment).

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Then 2020 happened.

There’s nothing special about 2020. We’ve had global pandemics before, the last one was just 100 years ago and we were probably overdue for another. We will likely have more in the future.

As for knowing Russia was consecrated, both Pope JPII, now a saint, and Sister Lucia, on the fast track to becoming a saint, said it was. I don’t see why anyone wouldn’t trust them.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

because there was a fear it would been seen as both hostile and volatile towards, first, the Soviets, then, after they fell, the Russian Orthodox Church

Yes. This spirit of fearing offending the Russians seems to have continued to this day.

You know, I’m a nice guy, I’m a Southern boy, I always try to be decent and kind to everybody… but there are times that you just have to do, what you have to do, and if someone gets offended, that’s very unfortunate, that’s on them, they’ll just have to deal with it, they’ll get over it, but even if they don’t, that’s not your problem. Happens all the time.

While Communism was in full swing, I can see the Collegial Consecration not being done — the Communists could well come back and tell East bloc faithful (including my own son’s grandparents) “oh, so you’re siding with the Church, are you, the Church that just got through attacking us?”. But the ROC? I respect and honor the ancient Russian Christian tradition as much as the next guy, but that can’t be the only consideration — following Our Lady’s request has to take priority. Make full communion less likely? Perhaps. When you convert from Catholicism to Russian Orthodoxy, you make an express rejection of purgatory and the papacy — I’ve seen video of this. Different religions have different attitudes towards other religions. That is just reality. When Jack Chick, the Reverend Ian Paisley, and Bob Jones University would make derisory comments about Catholicism, I was never offended — I just said to myself “believing what they believe, they’re really doing the only thing they can do, and if they’re trying to convert me away from Catholicism, I know why they’re doing it, and even though it’s not going to happen, I appreciate their solicitude for my spiritual welfare, as they perceive it”. I’d rather have people say what they think, than hide behind niceties that don’t reflect their mind. So if I were Russian Orthodox, I wouldn’t be offended, I’d just roll my eyes and think “there they go again, those Latin papalists think they are so ‘all that’, what else can you expect?”.

But, all that said, the “official” word is that the Consecration has been done, it was accepted by Our Lord and Our Lady, let it go, move on. And what has happened in Russia since 1989 — imperfect as the Russian plutocracy is (Putin et al) — is very hard to explain on anything other than a miraculous spiritual level.

We might do better than to keep grinding one’s gears over it.

 

[Jen7]

We might do better than to keep grinding one’s gears over it.

Very good point!

 

[Jen7]

There’s nothing special about 2020.

Well, it HAS been a difficult year for a lot of people.