Why should I believe in a God who commands a man to kill a mother and her children?

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Your question is really two questions: (1) Why should I believe in God? (2) Is God a moral monster?

Since you don’t already believe in God then you are likely a materialist who holds physical health as the highest morality. Death would then be the greatest wound to morality. To take someone else’s life would be the greatest crime to the materialist.

However, for those who already believe in God and the afterlife, death is an evil, but it is not the highest evil. The highest evil is eternal damnation. The body is temporary, but we exist even after the body dies. Therefore, for a Christian, if they are gravely ill, there remains the option of allowing nature to take its course because one is looking forward to the next life, rather than prolonging things with expensive medical treatments in order to sustain this existence. Death is therefore not the end but only the beginning of eternity.

When it comes to human life God is the author of all life. All things came into existence by him and is sustained in existence by his will. Reality itself it created by his truth. Therefore, the highest form of truth is God’s will. The standard by which all things must be judged is therefore by God’s standard. Thus, God has the right to make judgments about human life that we do not. God, as infinitely wise, merciful, and just, makes righteous judgments. Therefore, who can question God’s judgment? As it says in Wisdom 12 speaking of God’s merciful judgment on the land:

"for your imperishable spirit is in all things! 2 Therefore you rebuke offenders little by little, warn them, and remind them of the sins they are committing, that they may abandon their wickedness and believe in you, O LORD!

For truly, the ancient inhabitants of your holy land, 4 whom you hated for deeds most odious— Works of witchcraft and impious sacrifices; 5   a cannibal feast of human flesh and of blood, from the midst of. . .— These merciless murderers of children, 6 and parents who took with their own hands defenseless lives, You willed to destroy by the hands of our fathers, 7 that the land that is dearest of all to you might receive a worthy colony of God’s children.

8 But even these, as they were men, you spared, and sent wasps as forerunners of your army that they might exterminate them by degrees. 9 Not that you were without power to have the wicked vanquished in battle by the just, or wiped out at once by terrible beasts or by one decisive word; 10 But condemning them bit by bit, you gave them space for repentance. You were not unaware that their race was wicked and their malice ingrained, And that their dispositions would never change; 11 for they were a race accursed from the beginning.

Neither out of fear for anyone did you grant amnesty for their sins. 12 ** For who can say to you, “What have you done?” or who can oppose your decree? Or when peoples perish, who can challenge you, their maker; or who can come into your presence as vindicator of unjust men? 13 For neither is there any god besides you who have the care of all, that you need show you have not unjustly condemned; 14 Nor can any king or prince confront you on behalf of those you have punished. 15 But as you are just, you govern all things justly; you regard it as unworthy of your power to punish one who has incurred no blame.** …"
 
And in Ezekial 18 it says, “Do I find pleasure in the death of the wicked—oracle of the Lord GOD? Do I not rejoice when they turn from their evil way and live?..For I find no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies—oracle of the Lord GOD. Turn back and live!”

God’s judgment therefore is to encourage repentance, to bring people back to the LORD, away from final damnation. God takes no pleasure in their deaths. He allows their punishment so that a greater good may result, their salvation, and the salvation of others who witness their punishment.
 
The people of Nineveh were under God’s judgment but they repented. God does not punish those who repent, only those who stubbornly refuse.

“The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.”
  • Mt 12:41
 
"He said to them in reply,“Do you think that because these Galileans suffered in this way they were greater sinners than all other Galileans? By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did! “”
  • Lk 13:2-3
 
“Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
  • Rom 8:1
" See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off."
  • Rom 11:22
 
meltzerboy: Thank you for the reasoned response. I read through the paper once but didn’t get much out of it, probably because I have to read it more closely.

Julian0404: I am not an atheist. I was Catholic, but still believe in God in large part because of the existence of objective moral values. I have an seemingly insurmountable difficulty however, with believing in the Christian God if this is what he can command humans to do.

Humans must necessarily judge claims about God and his nature in order to determine what the truth is. Consider a Muslim who claims that he is under divine command to blow up 2000 civilians. In response to his detractors, he says, “I admit that this seems wrong on the surface, but we have to remember that God’s ways are not our ways. God is so much bigger than us and I, a lowly sinful human, am not in the position to judge his command to me to blow up these civilians. I simply trust in his providential wisdom that good will come of this.” What do you say to him then?

I’d also like to hear your response to the 1st question in the original post. Would you be willing to slaughter a mother and her child with your sword if God commanded you to? If you were an Israelite soldier back in those times, you would have to be. So would you? Could you ever be so certain that God himself actually commanded you to do it, that you would? That you weren’t mistaken and perhaps delusional or following the wrong God? Answer this for yourself when you are in the presence of a mother and her little girl.

fisherman carl: I believe in God, and I am not a materialist. I don’t believe in the Christian God right now, for the reason stated in this thread and a few others. Your post does not address the issue stated in mine. The first sentence I wrote was that I accept that God can kill people if he wants. If he had smote the Amalekites and Canaanites to smithereens with heavenly fire I would not have an issue. What I cannot accept is that he commands humans to do it for him, particularly in this instance where it goes against one of the most fundamental GOOD instincts he put in humans- namely, our repulsion to slaughtering a petrified mother and her child with no mercy.
 
Luke_K said:
fisherman carl: I believe in God, and I am not a materialist. I don’t believe in the Christian God right now, for the reason stated in this thread and a few others. Your post does not address the issue stated in mine. The first sentence I wrote was that I accept that God can kill people if he wants. If he had smote the Amalekites and Canaanites to smithereens with heavenly fire I would not have an issue. What I cannot accept is that he commands humans to do it for him, particularly in this instance where it goes against one of the most fundamental GOOD instincts he put in humans- namely, our repulsion to slaughtering a petrified mother and her child with no mercy.
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Your mental image of a petrified mother and her child being slaughtered with no mercy is your own mental image and does not square with the bible. From what I just revealed to you is this:
“But as you are just, you govern all things justly; you regard it as unworthy of your power to punish one who has incurred no blame”

God doesn’t punish innocent people. It’s right there in the scripture.
 
Julian0404 said:
But just for the sake of arguement your going to argue against GOD anyway and against the belief you state otherwise - that is not “arguement for the sake of arguement” that is yourself debating yourself.

No, the poster does not bring forth many things worth thinking about. The poster in fact declares she voluntarily choses to violate the First commandment and stand in opposition to GOD and HIS mercy becasue she cannot get her head and heart around the “what’s” that GOD performed in the O.T. Fine, if she wishes to be an atheist, she has a myriad of arguements to embrace that will lead her into perdition - this is just one of them.
The premise of her argument is - why can’t GOD be more human, like her, so that she can put HIM through the filter of humanity and judge HIM? - She does not understand GOD, so she judges HIM to be wrong, because she, and humans would be judged wrong doing what is being done in the O.T. -
This arguement, if entered into, automatically reduces GOD to less than GOD because you are arguing why GOD is not weaker, less, smaller, subject to some other authority - i.e. ALL human? GOD cannot be any of those and it is not worthy to ponder what GOD cannot be because GOD is ALL in ALL.
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  1. I admit I’m human and I DO struggle with my Faith like most everyone else here-----that does not mean I’m in any way shape or form going to abandon the One True Faith; it means that I simply like a good argument and intellectual discussion and exercise.
  2. I admit me (along with other peoples all over the world) tend to reflexively (not necessarily deliberately) “humanize” God. That does not mean it is correct or totally true to the Faith necessarily; it means (again) that I am human like everybody else. Everybody from the greatest Saint to the most indifferent Christian has had “doubts” and questions----even Mother Theresa doubted and questioned the real presence of God on the Eucharist occassionally; does that mean she is in Hell right now? Probably (almost certainly) not------although, yes, ultimately God decides.
    Even St. Anthony of Egypt, one of my favorite saints, questioned why some evil people prospered and some good people failed------Giod told him “don’t question my ways”------absolutely FINE, but that does not mean God struck him down or punished him for questioning. If even Mother Theresa and St. Anthony questioned and worried about their faith, if I do it I’m being arrogant?
  3. YOU yourself don’t understand God, remember that, ultimately, we are talking about a being that is BEYOND understanding.
    I try to the best of my ability to live up to his commandments and commands (unworthy wretch that I am)----I backslide and fall sometimes, but I get up and keep going, secure in the knowledge that the Almighty at least loves. Just because I question does not mean He will stop loving me. Or that engaing in a little intellectual wondering and questioning is damnation. God wants us to question sometimes. Even make demands of Him. I don’t think He wants obedient robots. If I’m wrong, i’m wrong and I beg God’s pardon and promise to shut down my “questioning nature” as best as I can. again, does not mean that God will abandon.
    Curious that you never answered my (and her) questions either but engaged in lecturing about her “presumptousness.” What about YOUR “presumptousness?”
Just saying.

Have a nice, blessed day, regardless.
 
Hi, to the OP.
I believe the biblical story is literally true and that God ordered the Israelites to
actually do that, yes.
First off, the ancients were very rough-neck people, not at all like us in so many ways
and life-experiences.
They lived hard, they worked hard, they fought hard, and often they died hard.
Scripture says in Genesis that the Israelites would not be given the land of Canaan
for hundreds of years in the future because the error (the wickedness) of it’s inhabitants
(referred to collectively as the AMORITES) had not reached it’s fullness (had not yet gone beyond the point of no return.)
By the time of the conquest of Canaan, that iniquity had boiled over and the people were way past repentance. These were people who had out and out demonic religions, who inculcated those diabolical, wicked, idolatrous, cannibalistic, orgiastic, vile religions and behaviors into their CHILDREN from infancy onward. You are (understandably)
idealizing those “mothers” with their helpless children, etc. But it is still an error.
Those mothers, archaeology has revealed, regularly sacrificed their children in murder to false gods. Thousands and thousands of huge potteries have been found filled with the bones of babies sacrificed to the demon gods. This was the filthy and extremely violent culture that the Israelites had to eradicate. These people and their children, already indoctrinated, greatly outnumbered the Israelites. It would not have been fair to the Israelites for God to expect them to “adopt” the millions of thorougly idolatrous and killer women and their (already largely indoctrinated in wickedness) children and try to convert these people to righteousness. The women would have been very, very filled with hate for their “merciful” captors who had killed their warrior husbands, and the kids would also have most likely nursed revenge toward those who killed their warrior dads. There was no conceivable way to save these millions of people, and the burden on the Israelites (already still weak in faith themselves) would have been intolerable.
They were sentenced, by God, to execution, all of them.
THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ALL WENT TO HELL NECESSARILY.
They may have gone to purgatory due to invincible ignorance of the true God.
We just don’t know.
Still, even though I know God had and HAS the right to order such things,
I am deeply grateful that in the Christian dispensation, He does not order us to do
such things and don’t know, at least in my present state, if I could at least willingly
obey such a command.
But people kill - and kill innocents - in war all the time. In the destruction of the Nazi regime, Berlin, a city filled with millions of women and children, was bombed nearly off the face of the earth along with lots of women and children, and nobody condemns the airmen of the allies for bombing Berlin and the other German cities (Dresden possibly being excepted here). They bombed the daylights out of Tokyo and women and children were killed. Are the airmen who did this required to “repent”?? I just don’t know.
But don’t single out the Israelites. And this genocide was only ordered by God on people who were horrifically wicked and coupled with the fact that there was no way that the Israelites could adopt and care for millions of thoroughly-idolatrous, baby-killing pagan women and their kids.
Still, again, I am glad that I am not asked to do such things by God today.
But stop for a minute.
At the second coming of Christ, the Day of the LORD, the scriptures, old and new testaments, indicate that Christ God is going to come from heaven with millions of saints and angels during a period of horrific wickedness and slay all the evildoers on the earth.
That indicates women and children, too, sadly, because ultimately, until they are old enough to choose the LORD, parents are responsible for their children.
I hope that at the second coming, all babies and children will be spared,
but nobody knows that they will be, for sure.
So let’s not judge Joshua and the other Israelite leaders.
Let’s be greatly thankful to God that He does not require such behavior and execution
of vengeance out of Christians today. I for one am very grateful for that.
But still, God had the right to order it done, and He did.
And God is a Trinity, and Christ is God, so the preIncarnate Christ did,
in fact, give this order. But again, it was against a people whom God knew
were too far gone, by and large, to be saved.
Love to all,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
Ahimsa said:
Christians interpret the Bible in the light of Christ. If Christ wouldn’t do it, then the Christian shouldn’t do it.
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Chritians believe that the God of the Old Testament is the same God as the God of the New Testament, and that Christ is that God.

*Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen. *

The people whom God commanded Israel to kill burned their children alive as sacrifice to fasle gods and made them child prostitutes in pagan temples. They engaged in incest, human sacrifice and drank human blood as part of their worship. God had enough.

And with 50 million children in the US cut apart with wires, vacuumed out of their mother’s womb into jars, trucked away to medical waste facilites to be burned, and their ashes thrown in the garbage, we are probably next.

-Tim-
 
Julian0404: I am not an atheist. I was Catholic, but still believe in God in large part because of the existence of objective moral values. I have an seemingly insurmountable difficulty however, with believing in the Christian God if this is what he can command humans to do.

Humans must necessarily judge claims about God and his nature in order to determine what the truth is. Consider a Muslim who claims that he is under divine command to blow up 2000 civilians. In response to his detractors, he says, “I admit that this seems wrong on the surface, but we have to remember that God’s ways are not our ways. God is so much bigger than us and I, a lowly sinful human, am not in the position to judge his command to me to blow up these civilians. I simply trust in his providential wisdom that good will come of this.” What do you say to him then?

I’d also like to hear your response to the 1st question in the original post. Would you be willing to slaughter a mother and her child with your sword if God commanded you to? If you were an Israelite soldier back in those times, you would have to be. So would you? Could you ever be so certain that God himself actually commanded you to do it, that you would? That you weren’t mistaken and perhaps delusional or following the wrong God? Answer this for yourself when you are in the presence of a mother and her little girl.

Yes, humans can judge claims about GOD, as made by other humans, but humans cannot judge GOD or the claims that GOD has made as that puts us above GOD and lowers GOD to less than GOD. And to embrace that we can even consider judging GOD, puts us on the slippery slope of atheism - you are talking yourself out of any faith you have remaining. Your own motherhood is working against you.

GOD was a very strong presence in the O.T. The Isrealites saw what HE did and could do. They saw the 10 plagues, they saw the Red Sea divided and return to swallow the Egyptians, they saw Moses with the 10 Commandments, they saw the symbol of the serpent on the staff save them from snake bite, they saw manna each morning and quail at night, they saw a cloud every day for 40 years follow them. They saw a flame for 40 years each night above the ark. They saw Jacob part the Jordan so the soldiers could pass. They saw that blowing rams horns on the 7th day collapse the walls of Jericho. They saw all these things personally, as directed by Moses and Jacob - so yes, when the leaders of the nation of Isreal told the soldiers what GOD had commanded, there is no doubt like today. GOD was a presence among them, not a thought or feeling. HE left signs, HE created signs, they knew absolutely HE was their GOD and what HE had commanded. And they did not question for they had seen signs and wonders the like of which we can only imagine. And one of the reasons scholars teach as to why GOD gave so many signs and wonders in the O.T. is for this very reason - to dissolve any doubt amongst HIS people that HE is real and they are HIS people.
HE did not say, go forth and kill any mother and child you happen upon, no - that is us in the 21st century. HE said go forth and kill these people and the Isrealites knowing HIS justice upon the Egyptians went forth and became HIS justice upon the people GOD declared. Years later, several nations became GOD justice against Isreal for their disbelief and turning their backs on HIM.
So, in answer to your question, yes, myself and every man who was an Isrealite would have seen themselves as acting as GOD’s justice and performed exactly as GOD had commanded - certain it was GOD, as they were GOD’s chosen people.
 
The God of the Old and New Testament is a very merciful God. He gives time for repentance. He sends his prophets to warn the people as he sent Jonah to warn the people of Nineveh. And, he does not destroy an entire city if there are even 10 righteous people in it (Gen 18:32).

Yet, if a people are stubborn and refuse to listen eventually God’s consequent will kicks in. His sense of justice has been wounded to the point that consequential action must be performed.

Now, this idea that humans are used to be an instrument of God’s wrath is nothing new. In fact, this has been part of history up until quite recently. During the middle ages for instance people fought in wars all the time. There were the Crusades for instance. Also, in the middle ages heresy could be a capital crime. Death was a big part of their life. Their view of death is very different from our modern culture today. But, death is still not the end.

In Joshua’s time, war was part of life, as it has been through every generation since then. We live in a relative time of peace in the West. Joshua was at war with the people you cite in Samuel. These people were fighting back. It wasn’t like Joshua walked in and put people to death like lambs to a slaughter. It was war.

Yet, God does not delight in punishing the wicked or putting them to death as it says in Ezekiel. But, the highest good is not the avoidance of physical death, but is being right with God and having Eternal Life. God would not delight in putting a mother and child to death. Yet, God does not punish the innocent, only those who refuse to repent.

Here is a story of a little boy who says he went to heaven. Hopefully it will help you see a more eternal perspective.
youtube.com/watch?v=QdUGoFTfP7w&feature=related
 
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