Why should the United States even have borders?

[Texas_Roofer]

…[reference]… I have a huge objection to laws based on ethnic, racial and religious factors, and the sad fact is our current immigration laws are rooted firmly in such discriminatory bases.

You have made an incorrect assumption which is often repeated by those who wish to fuel enmity towards the United States over the immigration issue. The fact is that reforms of the 1960’s ended preferential treatment and quotas. Since then the majority of legal immigrants have have come from Latin and South America, India, Southeast Asia. It is also a fact that the majority of the 1M+ legal immigrants annually come from this hemisphere along with the almost 1M illegal aliens. Contrary to your opinion the United States as a nation accounts for the majority of legal immigrants in the world. Claiming that “our current immigration laws are rooted firmly in such discriminatory basis” is as unnecessary as it is mean spirited. I hope that someday you will realize that we are very welcoming and gracious country towards immigrants.

I do not see an error in Annie’s post? Discrimination goes far beyond skin color, in the current environment it may be skin color, economic bias, or other reasons. A friend of mine (Mexican citizen) was in the northern US performing a demo as he was pushing a squeegee someone said “That’s a Mexican power tool”. The man from Mexico is a college graduate, the commenter was not. The man from Mexico has a professional job, the commenter did not. The man from Mexico has traveled the world the commenter has not. But I would ask you this if the situation were reversed would you expect the commenter to be dismissed? If not there is clearly an issue.

 

[Nino]

in Orwells book 1984 he warned of a future where in the world is divided into zones…not nations but zones! there is to be constant war…sometimes zone a attacks zone c while b and d are nuetral etc…Nationhood is like family…one feels comfortable with it for one is heard at the dinner table…ie voting booth! To remove borders is to remove all semblance of civilization…one becomes a drone…a worker with no rights as in a bee hive…just keep your mouth shut,work and pay your taxes and be grateful for your very existence!!!.no borders is like a football team with no memory scapebook…no cheerleaders needed for armed soldiers working for the state will more then suffice.The constant belittleing of our founders betray a signal for us to beware. No borders is like a boot pressing down on our face forever. My parents left Italy because it was taken over by Marxists in 1870…there was no freedom…one was born into a caste system…education was minimul…they left that forsaken land for the United States for here we were left a great nation…one in which we had a chance to be different from our relatives,our townspeople…we did not have to be dirt farmers.or work in the rice fields and thus live with the livestock…God God for borders…they are like a bracelet of love…not a handcuff but one of freedom and opportunity…may we never forget that…amen and amen…say here comes that Revere fella again…what is he yellin about now…he asks…

 

[Appleby]

Welfare, for one thing; Medicaid, Medicare, “free” education, food stamps, GOODIES of all sorts, and the very large number of people who would come flooding across the borders with both hands and a bucket, ready to shovel in the stuff they had no intention of working for and felt entitled to gobble, whether that was true or not.

If we allowed people to come to the USA but NOT be eligible for any goodies, and I mean ANY goodies, until they had been working at a documented paying job for two years, it might work out all right. And for those of you who are going to immediately say that people would starve, freeze and go nekkid, that is why we have charities and why Jesus said for us Christians to feed His sheep. I personally would not let anyone starve, freeze or go nekkid if I knew she needed help. Neither would you.

Borders are needed to keep the parasites out, lest they bleed us dry.

 

[Oakleaf]

Wow, interesting thoughts all around from posters here. Thanks everyone for the food for thought.

One thing I will throw out there is that the highest commandment is Love Your Neighbor. I have seen the immigration debate giving people tremendous impetus for hatred of their fellow human beings. If hatred is the effect of the anti-immigration movement, maybe the fruits are saying something about the tree here.

 

[Appleby]

I do not believe it is the debate about Immigrants, but the debate about * illegal* immigrants. If I find someone living in my basement, and I did not invite him into my house – he broke in through a back door or a window – am I not entitled to have him removed from the premises as soon as possible, regardless of the reason he may have sneaked or broken in?

And how about those Mexican illegals who parade around with their Mexican flags and brag about the day they kick US out of THEIR country (meaning Arizona, New Mexico and Texas)? Do you think somebody who breaks into your house and then brags about how he is going to throw YOU onto the street is entitled to anything but the bums rush?

Many of us are descended from LEGAL immigrants; I myself am a LEGAL immigrant to Canada, which cost me substantial cash money and two years of paperwork and travelling up here for various and sundry interviews and consultations with lawyers. And I resent the daylights out of those people who think that if they sneak in without standing in line and paying the tab, and they wail and cry and clutch their children, they are entitled to a free pass through the door. Let them come in nicely and knock and wait to be admitted, like my grandparents did to the USA and like I did to Canada.

 

[St_Francis]

I do not see an error in Annie’s post? Discrimination goes far beyond skin color, in the current environment it may be skin color, economic bias, or other reasons. A friend of mine (Mexican citizen) was in the northern US performing a demo as he was pushing a squeegee someone said “That’s a Mexican power tool”. The man from Mexico is a college graduate, the commenter was not. The man from Mexico has a professional job, the commenter did not. The man from Mexico has traveled the world the commenter has not. But I would ask you this if the situation were reversed would you expect the commenter to be dismissed? If not there is clearly an issue.

The fact that an ignorant individual made a bigoted remark does not actually reflect on the discrmination or lack thereof of our immigration laws. hazmatude was responding to puzzleannie’s remarks about our immigration laws, which were at the beginning of the 1900s more geared towards educated immigrants but which were changed in the 1960s as hazmatude described.

 

[St_Francis]

Why should the United States even have borders? Why should any nation have borders?

It almost seems proponents of “illegal” immigration believe there should be no rules governing U.S. borders. If one believes otherwise, they are often labeled a racist, or some other derogatory name.

Assuming this is essentially true, why should any nation have laws protecting its borders? What is the rationale behind pro-illegal immigration proponents (a.k.a. undocumented workers) concerning these issues?

I can certainly understand why many people want to be here; I also desire that they have a far more reasonable path to citizenship. It’s my hope and prayer that many from all around the world can legally and successfully attain the American dream, but it’s clear that something is very wrong, and is happening in the wrong way.

**If “illegal” immigration is justified here, then it’s reasonable to say that a borderless reality should be everywhere, and for all peoples. Otherwise, it would be hypocritical and a double-standard. Additionally, if a borderless reality poses serious dangers and threats, for various reasons, then it’s unjust for its “legal” citizens. **

I personally believe that God’s law to love one’s neighbor trumps man’s law in establishing borders. That being said, I do not believe that a world without borders is a good thing in its current depraved state. In a more perfect world, it would be great. But tearing down these “fences” without laws and careful preparation is counterproductive and harmful.

Brilliant

 

[Contarini]

You have made an incorrect assumption which is often repeated by those who wish to fuel enmity towards the United States over the immigration issue. The fact is that reforms of the 1960’s ended preferential treatment and quotas.

That’s not true. The Immigration Act of 1965 did not end quotas. It ended the strict (and explicitly discriminatory) system of quotas according to national origin that had prevailed since the 1920s. But there are still numerical caps (120,000 per year from the Western Hemisphere, for instance) which are wildly out of proportion to the number of people seeking to immigrate from places like Mexico. If you look at it from the point of view of a potential immigrant, it remains far, far more difficult for a Mexican to immigrate to the U.S. than for a British subject (for instance).

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I do not believe it is the debate about Immigrants, but the debate about * illegal* immigrants. If I find someone living in my basement, and I did not invite him into my house – he broke in through a back door or a window – am I not entitled to have him removed from the premises as soon as possible, regardless of the reason he may have sneaked or broken in?

And how about those Mexican illegals who parade around with their Mexican flags and brag about the day they kick US out of THEIR country (meaning Arizona, New Mexico and Texas)?

Could you explain just how the Mexican War meets traditional criteria for a just war? Just how was the annexation of the Southwest a morally legitimate act?

Edwin

 

[Texas_Roofer]

You have made an incorrect assumption which is often repeated by those who wish to fuel enmity towards the United States over the immigration issue. The fact is that reforms of the 1960’s ended preferential treatment and quotas. Since then the majority of legal immigrants have have come from Latin and South America, India, Southeast Asia. It is also a fact that the majority of the 1M+ legal immigrants annually come from this hemisphere along with the almost 1M illegal aliens. Contrary to your opinion the United States as a nation accounts for the majority of legal immigrants in the world. Claiming that “our current immigration laws are rooted firmly in such discriminatory basis” is as unnecessary as it is mean spirited. I hope that someday you will realize that we are very welcoming and gracious country towards immigrants.

The fact that an ignorant individual made a bigoted remark does not actually reflect on the discrmination or lack thereof of our immigration laws. hazmatude was responding to puzzleannie’s remarks about our immigration laws, which were at the beginning of the 1900s more geared towards educated immigrants but which were changed in the 1960s as hazmatude described.

Not long ago I was reading some immigration issues from late 1700’s, there was little difference than today. At that time I believe it was the Irish, then later Italians, today Mexicans, what is the difference really? Today we do not wish to build a fence on our border, we wish to build a fence between the US and Mexico. Most of our borders do not meet Mexico and there is no plan to fence any non-Mexican border ?

 

[St_Francis]

Not long ago I was reading some immigration issues from late 1700’s, there was little difference than today. At that time I believe it was the Irish, then later Italians, today Mexicans, what is the difference really? Today we do not wish to build a fence on our border, we wish to build a fence between the US and Mexico. Most of our borders do not meet Mexico and there is no plan to fence any non-Mexican border ?

Let’s see, John McCain said that the US Border Patrol estimated that there are 4 million people coming over the US/Mexico border illegally every year.

How many are coming from Canada?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Let’s see, John McCain said that the US Border Patrol estimated that there are 4 million people coming over the US/Mexico border illegally every year.

How many are coming from Canada?

An thus the view! I think the current US birth rate is about 4.5 million so either the US birth rate supplies well under half of the new population or - people are pandering through falsehood, which do you think is correct?

 

[Appleby]

Could you explain just how the Mexican War meets traditional criteria for a just war? Just how was the annexation of the Southwest a morally legitimate act?

Edwin

Are you in this country legally, Edwin? Are your parents here legally?

The only people who want to break up the United States and hand it over to other countries, that I have met, have been members of La Raza (a terrorist organization) and all of them have been in the country illegally.

This is the last post I will make on this thread, as it is veering toward the advocacy of illegal behaviour and what the law calls terroristic threats and I will not be a part of that.

 

[St_Francis]

An thus the view! I think the current US birth rate is about 4.5 million so either the US birth rate supplies well under half of the new population or - people are pandering through falsehood, which do you think is correct?

I am sorry, I don’t quite understand what you are saying here about the birth rate and the population?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Why should the United States even have borders?

Why should we live in homes with walls and doors and door locks?

Why can’t we all just camp out in sleeping bags, sit around the campfire and sing kumbaya while drinking “American” tequila and smoking free-market Acapulco Gold Cannabis?

I think I now understand why we no longer do the pledge of allegiance or sing America the Beautiful. It’s become too ambiguous or culturally insensitive as to if it means: North, *Central *or South America or all 3 taken together. Besides some of the North Americans still are trying to decide if they want to be French, loyal to the British Crown or come join the rebels in the “states”.

Beam me up Scotty there is no intelligent life down here…

James

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I am sorry, I don’t quite understand what you are saying here about the birth rate and the population?

The number is most likely incorrect. The number simply makes no sense. Yet the important issue is if we speak of a group as Mexican we suspend our need to follow god’s commandments. Bearing false witness surely did not mean against -]Irish, Blacks, or /-]Mexicans right?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Why should the United States even have borders?

Why should we live in homes with walls and doors and door locks?

Why can’t we all just camp out in sleeping bags, sit around the campfire and sing kumbaya while drinking “American” tequila and smoking free-market Acapulco Gold Cannabis?

I think I now understand why we no longer do the pledge of allegiance or sing America the Beautiful. It’s become too ambiguous or culturally insensitive as to if it means: North, *Central *or South America or all 3 taken together. Besides some of the North Americans still are trying to decide if they want to be French, loyal to the British Crown or come join the rebels in the “states”.

Beam me up Scotty there is no intelligent life down here…

James

Are you referring to your chioce to do this or my authority to make you do this?

 

[St_Francis]

The number is most likely incorrect. The number simply makes no sense. Yet the important issue is if we speak of a group as Mexican we suspend our need to follow god’s commandments. Bearing false witness surely did not mean against -]Irish, Blacks, or /-]Mexicans right?

OK, now I understand your original question. You were referring to the population growth rate as estimated by the Census Bureau, and asking how 4 million could have been estimated to cross the border, when the Census Bureau estimated that the population grew only by 2.8 million. Is that what you were saying?

However, my point remains: there are more people entering the country illagally over our southern border than over our northern border. This is why people are focused on the sourthern border.

Yet the important issue is if we speak of a group as Mexican we suspend our need to follow god’s commandments. Bearing false witness surely did not mean against -]Irish, Blacks, or /-]Mexicans right?

I do not understand your point here, now.

God’s commandments are such that a nation is able to restrict immigration—not to the point of selfishness, but definitely in order to protect the population. Therefore, restricting illmigration is *not wrong. *

However, it is also true that God expects us to act respectfully to every person whom we encounter.

There are two different issues involved here: one is the nation’s moral obligation to protect the population, and the other is the obligation to treat others with dignity.

I do not believe that these are opposed. I believe that I can treat every person I encounter with dignity, and still believe that illegal immigration is wrong. And I believe it is wrong for several different reasons.

If the US were to change its immigration laws to allow many more Mexicans to enter, I would have no problem with that (except for a complex one unrelated to the issue at hand). I have no problem with the presence of foreigners in my country.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Are you referring to your chioce to do this or my authority to make you do this?

What is “this”?

James

 

[hazmatdude]

That’s not true. The Immigration Act of 1965 did not end quotas. It ended the strict (and explicitly discriminatory) system of quotas according to national origin that had prevailed since the 1920s. But there are still numerical caps (120,000 per year from the Western Hemisphere, for instance) which are wildly out of proportion to the number of people seeking to immigrate from places like Mexico. If you look at it from the point of view of a potential immigrant, it remains far, far more difficult for a Mexican to immigrate to the U.S. than for a British subject (for instance).

Edwin

Without doing an exhaustive search I came across some immigration statistics that appear to contradict every one of your assumptions. From 1970-1998 approx. 26.3M legal immigrants lived in the US. Of those 13.4M came from this hemisphere. If the 120K/yr quota that you cite existed only 3.4M people should have been allowed to immigrate.

You also imply that the US is biased against Mexicans when compared immigrants from Britain. On the contrary during the period being discussed 7.1M Mexican immigrants vs. only 622K British immigrants lived in the US.