Why should we have to continuously ask for forgiveness of a state we were born into?

[AttendeDomine]

We are created with a fallen nature, yet God still loves us, but only if we ask for forgiveness for a fallen natures.

Humans are obviously born with a weakness. As Fr. Benedict Groeschel was fond of saying, even the atheists in New York believe in original sin: it’s all around us and is easily one of the most demonstrable aspects of our faith.

But we don’t “ask for forgiveness” for being born without sanctifying grace. We ask for forgiveness for the sins that we commit. I think a part of the problem you’re experiencing comes from conflating existing in a state of weakness with the notion that we do things we’re incapable of NOT doing. Sin is always chosen. It is always our fault. If it isn’t chosen, if it isn’t a free human action, it isn’t sin.

Moreover, you yourself concede that even our original parents sinned, despite existing in a state of sanctifying grace. Surely you see, therefore, that whether or not we are weak, we can still choose sin. So the notion that it is somehow odd to ask forgiveness for our choices, since we are weak anyway, just doesn’t hold water. Sin transcends mere weakness, and has existed as option for the vast majority of God’s rational creatures, whether human or no.

One of the problems in thinking about all of this, is that a lot of people attempt to speculate without any sort of firm foundation upon which to build. The first step is education, it’s not simply approaching some aspect of theology and trying to find holes in it.

To that end, I would recommend the lectures of Dr. Lawrence Feingold, especially this one from this set.

 

[AttendeDomine]

The first two sinless humans didn’t manage it, yet the fallen humans must follow these rules in order to find freedom from worldly passions etc and make it to heaven or burn in hell.

Yes, finding freedom from our own passions results from practicing virtue, and yes, that is difficult. It is a challenge. But so is being an athlete, and doing all the work to physically perform at a certain level.

Frankly, the difficulty of Christianity is precisely why I get nervous whenever people consider things like piety and prayer to be feminine. No it’s not. It requires a tremendous amount of fortitude. Most men aren’t man enough for it. As G.K. Chesterton observed, “Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.” We live in an effeminate and slothful culture: one that cannot do anything arduous because of the great sorrow it has at being separated from pleasure. Don’t be like those people! With God’s grace, you can be so much more.

I have a book recommendation for you: amazon.com/The-Romance-Religion-Fighting-Goodness/dp/0849921953

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Following rules was apparently never going to happen with the human. The first two sinless humans didn’t manage it, yet the fallen humans must follow these rules in order to find freedom from worldly passions etc and make it to heaven or burn in hell.

Man, I depress myself…

Exactly! How is this supposed to be Good News?

That I can be miserable and that nobody is good enough to get out of it?

This is why the Real Good News is that we can in fact be “born in the spirit” but the whole concept seems to have been stolen by Protestants … and weird Holy Spirit charismatic kookballs. And we can’t go along with how They Say Things, right?

And why the “law of sin and death” was not, and never was, capable of correcting the so-called “error” in the design and nurturing of Adam/Eve which btw let’s keep a reality check that the Church teaches that Genesis is written in “figurative language” and in fact is not required to take literally. My own take after having a number of discussions of various intensities with Genesis literalists, is that a “serious attempt” at a literal interpretation is in itself confusion and can lead to error. To me it is ridiculous when put to the scrutiny of anything useful and consistent at least the way it looks to me after taking an honest attempt at “due diligence” to convince myself there is even value in it.

The western idea of success has very much infiltrated the way we color the messages of Jesus to the point they aren’t even recognizable.

When we are consumed with fear and worry about heaven, based on following rules, we are basically putting the work of Jesus in the closet and going back to being as paranoid as people were before Jesus, but with an added level of guilt. It’s like Jesus just added “thought crimes” to the list of things we can be paranoid about, so even when we grovel we have no idea whether we’re “groveling correctly” or not.

This is a mentality Jesus famously tried to attack in Peter – once by calling out Satan who was using Peter as a tool to speak on behalf of falsehood by saying what sounds like “true compassion” of speaking against the suffering of his friend. Another time by telling Peter that if he doesn’t let Jesus wash his feet, he can have no part of him. It was the pride of Peter, which prevented him from allowing Jesus to kneel at his feet and wash him. And look at how we treat Jesus today – as an “untouchable” that we have to be dancing on eggshells before even considering approaching him.

Scrupulosity kills. Bad application of Jesus’s words to supply the structure do maybe, like the “dishonest steward” continue to move the Words of Jesus forward in time, by packaging it in a semi-worldly wrapper (“the field where the Real Treasure lay buried”) that people who would never actually benefit from that treasure would give their lives defending it. So yes we have a structure run by worldly men, that has endured in order to be the wrapper and delivery mechanism for the Real Treasure, the words OF Jesus Himself and the extensions afforded by St. Paul et al.

Serve the Church, but don’t consider the Church herself to be the judge or we are back into idolatry – the “keys to bind and loose” notwithstanding – or it is just another form of idolatry. Not just any idolatry, but idolatry of a most sinister kind where neither the individual member of the Body of Christ, nor the structure, seems to have any compelling motivation to recognize that tradition and ritual are to edify but are not in themselves of any power unless they have this elusive “love”.

Let’s kick it up a notch. How many “mainstream” Catholics, average Joe Pew Sitter on Sundays and Holy Days even, actually feel the “freedom” of Jesus’s teachings, rather than just another source of anxiety about how we are Doing Something Wrong at Any Given Time? Now compare that to the number who are Scrupulous, and if we do the math, the only conclusion I can have is that what is secret is now – in this “information sharing capable” age where technology allows us to speak to “all nations” at any given moment with keystrokes – is coming to the surface. All those who gave their lives and may never have actually seen the kingdom while they walked the earth, can take consolation in that they were nevertheless instruments to bring the undiluted words of the Lord to the 21st century and beyond.

Like what if there were only one copy of the Bible on the planet, and evil men wanted to destroy it. Would God refuse to protect it from destruction by evil men, using other evil men as instruments? You better bet so, or the church would not even be here, and even Protestants would never have heard the term “born of the spirit” because it would have been killed by authorities that don’t tolerate “distributed power” of the Holy Spirit among the members of the Body of Christ, by penalty of worldly pain for not going along with the Rules of Man.

In the year 313, we may think it was terrible that the Church became the imperial religion and amassed much worldly power, but again like the dishonest steward, I believe God is very pleased because if you really dig into the actual words of Jesus and ponder what they mean, it might reveal a much more interesting and believable nature of truth that does not sound at all like what a lot of us are served up as “the right way to think” about things.

Trust your heart. Don’t be afraid to challenge the status quo not to deny teachings or even argue about them, but to follow where the “wellspring of living water flowing from within” is trying to take you. This OP is an excellent movement in that direction IMO. Remember the only ones Jesus really became angry with were not in fact “sinners” as we normally like to (pridefully) hate ourselves for being, but those who would judge them and put them away for being “unworthy” for whatever function it is.

 

[Dorothy]

Yes, finding freedom from our own passions results from practicing virtue, and yes, that is difficult. It is a challenge. But so is being an athlete, and doing all the work to physically perform at a certain level.

Frankly, the difficulty of Christianity is precisely why I get nervous whenever people consider things like piety and prayer to be feminine. No it’s not. It requires a tremendous amount of fortitude. Most men aren’t man enough for it. As G.K. Chesterton observed, “Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.” We live in an effeminate and slothful culture: one that cannot do anything arduous because of the great sorrow it has at being separated from pleasure. Don’t be like those people! With God’s grace, you can be so much more.

I have a book recommendation for you: amazon.com/The-Romance-Religion-Fighting-Goodness/dp/0849921953

Thank you for this post!

And I remember reading Father Dwight Longnecker’s testimony a long time ago. Awesome!

 

[Dorothy]

“Mystical Seeker”,

You wrote: "This is why the Real Good News is that we can in fact be “born in the spirit” but the whole concept seems to have been stolen by Protestants … and weird Holy Spirit charismatic kookballs. And we can’t go along with how They Say Things, right? "

Aren’t you aware that there is a Catholic Charismatic Renewal?

We are also “born in the Holy Spirit” when we make a good confession. Our Lord Jesus Christ designed the Church so we can serve each other.

Are there flawed individuals in the Church? Yes, we are all on a journey, and in various places on that journey.

Rebellion towards the legitimate teaching authority of the Church will not bring about a better Christianity.

When we discern wrong thinking in members of the Body of Christ then loving correction is in order.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

“Mystical Seeker”,

You wrote: "This is why the Real Good News is that we can in fact be “born in the spirit” but the whole concept seems to have been stolen by Protestants … and weird Holy Spirit charismatic kookballs. And we can’t go along with how They Say Things, right? "

That’s correct. The terminology was intended to parody the speech of those who apparently consider these “atypical” representations of Catholic behavior as fringy weirdos.

Recently was the annual “Holy Spirit” conference at our parish, run by a friend whose group prayed over me and laid hands on years ago, confident in my inevitable recovery from a condition I was told was terminal by all the “professionals.” They invited me to accompany them on a “toy” piano, as they sang simple songs. This year featured our bishop kicking it off with a talk about the “Year of Mercy” that Papa F has called, and with whom I got to take a gratuitous selfie – and then send it to my son whom he (bishop) had just a week before sent to Chicago to complete his seminary training.

Mundelein, actually, where Fr. Barron was in charge until now. The Holy Father just reassigned him but we don’t know who will take over there yet.

Many years ago I went to my first and as far as I know the only actual Charismatic meeting we’ve had in our diocese, at a large hotel ballroom downtown. The leader Marilyn was awesome, and the bishop was there to conclude with Mass. But the weirdest thing happened when they were doing healings. I wasn’t even at the stage with the others when she called up those. I just went up there because it seemed like the thing to do and was looking at the band and was at least 5 or 6 bodies away from the stage, when she signaled my wife to bring me to the stage. I thought, wow, me? but then when she got to me after going down the line over and over with others, becoming slain in the spirit almost every one falling down, she backed up and said “woah” and said there was something huge and she’s never seen it before and she doesn’t know what it is. This over the mic in front of the whole crowd, with band still playing softly. She didn’t do that with any other person she prayed over.

This has left an indelible impression that has not ceased to work its way into my ‘now’ in many ways, and allowed me to seek a path that is individually crafted, so it would seem, by the Spirit. And then two years ago, during my psychosis I found myself “in the kingdom” but was so manic that I ended up doing some of the most crazy stuff that spring as a finale to an 11 year Dark Night episode. Then I found out my oldest son was joining the seminary. So I’m pretty invested in all of this, and I see why you stepped in since my writing didn’t reveal my love for mysticism and the Holy Spirit. I listen to the words of the Christ, Jesus of Nazareth, but the Holy Spirit is the guidance He left us with in his physical absence. And since the Eucharist does not speak to me in human words, I must learn to discerns the inexpressible groanings of the Spirit. Some great direction starting in 2001 right after I went psycho (by “coincidence” the Spirit had arranged for my first ever meeting with SD at age 42) ultimately opened my mind and heart for Divine Therapist intervention, resulting in healing that human professional alone cannot promise and warned against expecting.

Aren’t you aware that there is a Catholic Charismatic Renewal?

We are also “born in the Holy Spirit” when we make a good confession. Our Lord Jesus Christ designed the Church so we can serve each other.

Are there flawed individuals in the Church? Yes, we are all on a journey, and in various places on that journey.

Rebellion towards the legitimate teaching authority of the Church will not bring about a better Christianity.

When we discern wrong thinking in members of the Body of Christ then loving correction is in order.

In a way you are born of the Holy Spirit making a good confession; I’ve never thought of it that way before so I appreciate the idea.

I’ve always heard “born of the Spirit” applied to Confirmation. If you had said that I’d have had a defense that a sacrament is an “outward symbol” of an inward grace.

But here you have pointed out the “good confession” is not just a symbol, but the mechanism itself leading to an act of rebirth.

That’s not to say “eyes are open” IMO, but far from it. Not that “eyes are open” is a dualistic division, but really at this point I’m just slathering verbage on the screen. In short, thank you for your intervention, clearly yet another act the Holy Spirit either orchestrated, allowed, or will make the best of – depending on your preference of specific beliefs.

I would love Catholics to speak much about the Holy Spirit, because afa I’m concerned, it seems to me the Church spends a lot of effort in driving conformance to traditionally observable outward practices. One of the reasons I even come to CAF is to find chances to inject ideas of the apophatic traditions and mysticism like Unknowing, Dark Night, Holy Spirit conferences, etc.

The charity I felt in your reply to me, especially considering your concern over the nature of my remarks in the absence of clarification I hope to have now provided, is heartwarming and feels like a Beatitude has been spread into my presence.

MS

 

[Dorothy]

That’s correct. The terminology was intended to parody the speech of those who apparently consider these “atypical” representations of Catholic behavior as fringy weirdos.

Recently was the annual “Holy Spirit” conference at our parish, run by a friend whose group prayed over me and laid hands on years ago, confident in my inevitable recovery from a condition I was told was terminal by all the “professionals.” They invited me to accompany them on a “toy” piano, as they sang simple songs. This year featured our bishop kicking it off with a talk about the “Year of Mercy” that Papa F has called, and with whom I got to take a gratuitous selfie – and then send it to my son whom he (bishop) had just a week before sent to Chicago to complete his seminary training.

Mundelein, actually, where Fr. Barron was in charge until now. The Holy Father just reassigned him but we don’t know who will take over there yet.

In a way you are born of the Holy Spirit making a good confession; I’ve never thought of it that way before so I appreciate the idea.

I’ve always heard “born of the Spirit” applied to Confirmation. If you had said that I’d have had a defense that a sacrament is an “outward symbol” of an inward grace.

But here you have pointed out the “good confession” is not just a symbol, but the mechanism itself leading to an act of rebirth.

That’s not to say “eyes are open” IMO, but far from it. Not that “eyes are open” is a dualistic division, but really at this point I’m just slathering verbage on the screen. In short, thank you for your intervention, clearly yet another act the Holy Spirit either orchestrated, allowed, or will make the best of – depending on your preference of specific beliefs.

I would love Catholics to speak much about the Holy Spirit, because afa I’m concerned, it seems to me the Church spends a lot of effort in driving conformance to traditionally observable outward practices. One of the reasons I even come to CAF is to find chances to inject ideas of the apophatic traditions and mysticism like Unknowing, Dark Night, Holy Spirit conferences, etc.

The charity I felt in your reply to me, especially considering your concern over the nature of my remarks in the absence of clarification I hope to have now provided, is heartwarming and feels like a Beatitude has been spread into my presence.

MS

Thank you so much for clarifying where you are coming from! You came across as an angry person desiring to blast a lot of people in the Church.

Any good my comments did or do come (I deeply hope) from the Holy Spirit.

All the good that Catholic Charismatic Renewal has done for me over the years is greatly appreciated. I learned about the importance of love and forgiveness for others, inner healing, the healing of bad memories, and about the charisms of the Holy Spirit that are given to us for the sake of others.

Of course, we need discernment in all of this, and keeping our eyes on the authentic Magisterium of the Church.

It was a Carmelite priest that introduced me to an excellent form of charismatic renewal. When I went to his Days of Prayer once a month, in the highly contemplative Mass that he celebrated we were always instructed to have fifteen minutes of silence after receiving the Eucharist. Then we were permitted to manifest the charismatic gifts we received. It was so powerful, inspiring, and life-changing!

He also pointed out to us that all prayer…liturgical, novenas, aspirations, adoration, praise, etc., is to bring us to union with Christ which is a lifelong journey, and usually more…(purification). He recommended specific books to us during his conferences,…and his book table contained the writings of St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese of Lisieux, and a few others.

I’ll share a little more in another post. (I edited out some of your message because it was long &
wouldn’t let me send it.)
Peace in Jesus and Mary!

Dorothy

 

[Memaw]

Thank you so much for clarifying where you are coming from! You came across as an angry person desiring to blast a lot of people in the Church.

Any good my comments did or do come (I deeply hope) from the Holy Spirit.

All the good that Catholic Charismatic Renewal has done for me over the years is greatly appreciated. I learned about the importance of love and forgiveness for others, inner healing, the healing of bad memories, and about the charisms of the Holy Spirit that are given to us for the sake of others.

Of course, we need discernment in all of this, and keeping our eyes on the authentic Magisterium of the Church.

It was a Carmelite priest that introduced me to an excellent form of charismatic renewal. When I went to his Days of Prayer once a month, in the highly contemplative Mass that he celebrated we were always instructed to have fifteen minutes of silence after receiving the Eucharist. Then we were permitted to manifest the charismatic gifts we received. It was so powerful, inspiring, and life-changing!

He also pointed out to us that all prayer…liturgical, novenas, aspirations, adoration, praise, etc., is to bring us to union with Christ which is a lifelong journey, and usually more…(purification). He recommended specific books to us during his conferences,…and his book table contained the writings of St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese of Lisieux, and a few others.

I’ll share a little more in another post. (I edited out some of your message because it was long &
wouldn’t let me send it.)
Peace in Jesus and Mary!

Dorothy

I knew a lady that belonged to a very large Charismatic group in my diocese about 20 years ago when it was a BIG thing, and she had belonged for several years, when she was found to have cancer. They prayed over her, laid hands on her, the works. Her cancer went into remission and they thought a miracle. A couple years later it returned very aggressively, and they literally turned on her saying she didn’t have strong enough faith. She was devastated. She died being shut out of the group. I have had little use for that sort of thing ever since. A few years later, I had another friend that went thru about the same kind of Cancer but she was surrounded by many faithful Catholics that loved and prayed for her all during her sickness and she died a very peaceful death with the Sacraments of the Church. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Dorothy]

I knew a lady that belonged to a very large Charismatic group in my diocese about 20 years ago when it was a BIG thing, and she had belonged for several years, when she was found to have cancer. They prayed over her, laid hands on her, the works. Her cancer went into remission and they thought a miracle. A couple years later it returned very aggressively, and they literally turned on her saying she didn’t have strong enough faith. She was devastated. She died being shut out of the group. I have had little use for that sort of thing ever since. A few years later, I had another friend that went thru about the same kind of Cancer but she was surrounded by many faithful Catholics that loved and prayed for her all during her sickness and she died a very peaceful death with the Sacraments of the Church. God Bless, Memaw

It is very sad to hear about the confusion caused by those in the renewal. In no way was it correct for them to say that she lacked faith.

Where I live there are core groups that meet regularly with a priest liaison (spelling?) to our bishop. Just like it is in every movement in our Church, spiritual direction and correction is needed.

The purpose of prayer groups is to aid in the sanctification of its members, and for them to become fuller members of the Body of Christ in community.

I like to point out that the saints did not have to make a Life in the Spirit Seminar. They manifested the charismatic gifts as a result of their deeper prayer life.

Catholic Charismatic Renewal has been totally replaced, for me, by my spiritual journey in the Lay Carmelite Third Order.

 

[simpleas]

Humans are obviously born with a weakness. As Fr. Benedict Groeschel was fond of saying, even the atheists in New York believe in original sin: it’s all around us and is easily one of the most demonstrable aspects of our faith.

But we don’t “ask for forgiveness” for being born without sanctifying grace. We ask for forgiveness for the sins that we commit. I think a part of the problem you’re experiencing comes from conflating existing in a state of weakness with the notion that we do things we’re incapable of NOT doing. Sin is always chosen. It is always our fault. If it isn’t chosen, if it isn’t a free human action, it isn’t sin.

Moreover, you yourself concede that even our original parents sinned, despite existing in a state of sanctifying grace. Surely you see, therefore, that whether or not we are weak, we can still choose sin. So the notion that it is somehow odd to ask forgiveness for our choices, since we are weak anyway, just doesn’t hold water. Sin transcends mere weakness, and has existed as option for the vast majority of God’s rational creatures, whether human or no.

One of the problems in thinking about all of this, is that a lot of people attempt to speculate without any sort of firm foundation upon which to build. The first step is education, it’s not simply approaching some aspect of theology and trying to find holes in it.

To that end, I would recommend the lectures of Dr. Lawrence Feingold, especially this one from this set.

Thanks I will definitely listen to those talks when I have more time

My problem is that I will think of the first two humans created with gifts to help them on their journey to God, without a nature that was incline to seek it’s own way. Yet they apparently did seek their own way even with those gifts, so this got me thinking that they were inclined to sin and so God gave them the gifts to use or throw away.

 

[Memaw]

It is very sad to hear about the confusion caused by those in the renewal. In no way was it correct for them to say that she lacked faith.

Where I live there are core groups that meet regularly with a priest liaison (spelling?) to our bishop. Just like it is in every movement in our Church, spiritual direction and correction is needed.

The purpose of prayer groups is to aid in the sanctification of its members, and for them to become fuller members of the Body of Christ in community.

I like to point out that the saints did not have to make a Life in the Spirit Seminar. They manifested the charismatic gifts as a result of their deeper prayer life.

Catholic Charismatic Renewal has been totally replaced, for me, by my spiritual journey in the Lay Carmelite Third Order.

I think things have changed in the Charismatics over the years. I haven’t heard to much about the extreme things they used to do. I think they have settled down to a more sincere practice of their Catholic faith. That large group in our town has since fizzled out. The priest that was in charge of it has left it too. I think he is still a priest but not involved in the charismatics anymore. I went to several of his Masses where he was “slaying in the Spirit” left and right. Had several men there to catch them. I have NEVER seen that happen at any other Mass and over the years I have been to plenty of Masses. I have been a daily Mass attendant for 45 years. God Bless, Memaw

 

[simpleas]

Trust your heart. Don’t be afraid to challenge the status quo not to deny teachings or even argue about them, but to follow where the “wellspring of living water flowing from within” is trying to take you. This OP is an excellent movement in that direction IMO. Remember the only ones Jesus really became angry with were not in fact “sinners” as we normally like to (pridefully) hate ourselves for being, but those who would judge them and put them away for being “unworthy” for whatever function it is.

From post #23.

Well I don’t usually think or hate myself for being a sinner, I know I and others fall short of what we can do. Just lately I have become uncomfortable with having to hear over and over in mass that we are sinners. That Man from his/her very being in some way wanted to be like God, which of course is fine, but not when it’s done without God.
It’s like I don’t want to hear that there was ever a, almost, perfect couple, given the ability to choose the path for each of our first beginnings. Why would our great creator bestow this on just two people? God knew all this wouldn’t work, yet here we are thanking God for our suffering, we’re almost greatful for the evil in the world, because through whatever our sufferings maybe, we can always thank God for our existence.
This may sound like I’m hating God or something, I am not, I feel like I’m in a sort of turn around or whatever it maybe called, which seems very freeing, yet very scary to accept.

Anyway thanks all for your blessings and conversation.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Thank you so much for clarifying where you are coming from! You came across as an angry person desiring to blast a lot of people in the Church.

I kind of jump around. I have harbored a great deal of anger toward the Church and certain subsets of those who operate it, and a couple years ago I was about ready to dream for her physical assets to be taken away from her, like the rich man who walked away sadly. Funny thing is about that time, Francis entered the scene and now I feel like I have an ally in bringing back more of the messages of Jesus, and not so much the messages and structures designed about Him and in His name.

The anger is almost completely gone, though, because I am starting to see how the wisdom of God is nothing like what I think is the “right way to do things” – I rely very heavily on the “dishonest steward” story to clinch the fact that sinful humans running the church, have by whatever means promulgated, protected, and preserved the Word of God, and reliably delivers it for God knows how many generations to come. They have kept “the story” alive, which IMO is the most important part from a cognitive/spiritual standpoint, and that story is embodied by the carrying forward of the Eucharist.

Any good my comments did or do come (I deeply hope) from the Holy Spirit.

My newest version of “Trust in the Lord” involves “everything’s ok trust the Spirit” and I challenge myself that even if I don’t like what is in my now, the Spirit will not fail and Rom 8:28 will apply whether or not I can see it. That has helped me see my more. In exchange for trust, the Holy Spirit has become my #1 scapegoat. Jesus did the “scapegoat” thing while He was here, and left us with the spirit. If the Spirit guides and connects all, then really how is it even possible to “resist” the Holy Spirit? We make choices based on free will, but that can’t bind the Holy Spirit, and even if it is harmful to me or loved ones then unless I deny Rom 8:28, believers will benefit. This is like putting slam dunk on any interior monologue that tries to make me sad, depressed, hopeless etc like "this moment is horrible and it is because this or that is not right … " to say that “now” is horrible, is to advance-judge that this passage is a lie. It gives me a “sticking point” that I can rally around, and keep myself from being taken over by fear and judgment.

Funny thing I dared use the word “scapegoat” around a Jewish-Christian lawyer, and he (being expert in scripture) told me about the origin of the term, in Leviticus 16. So it seems I was right in discerning that “scapegoat” was one of the roles Jesus played. He got blamed and punished for our sins, like the goat was given the sins of the people and sent into the woods.

All the good that Catholic Charismatic Renewal has done for me over the years is greatly appreciated. I learned about the importance of love and forgiveness for others, inner healing, the healing of bad memories, and about the charisms of the Holy Spirit that are given to us for the sake of others.

We have had the Holy Spirit conferences at our parish for several years now, but the only actual charismatic event I’ve been to was in about 1994 I think, the one I described.

We have a new bishop that may be open to more organization, so I think I’ll talk to him about it.

Maybe I should volunteer to head it up! scary thought, but well gosh maybe even I could learn?

It was a Carmelite priest that introduced me to an excellent form of charismatic renewal. When I went to his Days of Prayer once a month, in the highly contemplative Mass that he celebrated we were always instructed to have fifteen minutes of silence after receiving the Eucharist. Then we were permitted to manifest the charismatic gifts we received. It was so powerful, inspiring, and life-changing!

Sweet!

…and his book table contained the writings of St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese of Lisieux, and a few others.

NOW you’re talking my favorite language.

I can so relate to Teresa of Avila, but I get kind of intimidate by Therese of Lisieux, because I feel so different than her. It’s like if she were at a banquet, I’d want to sit at the Misbehaving Children’s table with the others from Avila!

I edited out some of your message because it was long &
wouldn’t let me send it.)

I get that a lot.

 

[Dorothy]

Mystical Seeker,

Thank you for your response to my message.

If you are interested, I want to share this website with you. It contains many conferences given by Father Venard Poslusney, O. Carm. who I mentioned about in my post to you:

advancedchristianity.com/

You stated that you are interested in the Carmelite Doctors of the Church…there are a few MP3s available on them. Also on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

There is a short bio of Father Venard and his picture, at the top of the site.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Mystical Seeker,

Thank you for your response to my message.

If you are interested, I want to share this website with you. It contains many conferences given by Father Venard Poslusney, O. Carm. who I mentioned about in my post to you:

advancedchristianity.com/

You stated that you are interested in the Carmelite Doctors of the Church…there are a few MP3s available on them. Also on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

There is a short bio of Father Venard and his picture, at the top of the site.

Peace,

Dorothy

Thank you. I will check that out. I didn’t know they were Carmelite, but I’m interested.

I’ve decided to go back to the Secular Franciscans, and maybe go through this time. I hung around with them for a year or so, but decided to quit last December.

After listening to Richard Rohr’s new Audible book “Eager to Love” – billed as his first book that is actually about being Franciscan – I’m interested again.

One reason I quit is I didn’t think I could conform my rapidly morphing ideas, so I could color inside the lines. But now I see first of all I’m better at staying inside the lines (in the spirit of 1 Cor 9:19-23 hee hee) and plus a greater view about how Francis remained within the structure of the Church, while himself living out on the fringes. Like he’d come into town for formalities, then go back out where he got to live in poverty without getting hassled about it. Highly paraphrased, but it got me interested in trying again. There is a minimum 3 year formation before option to profess, and I’ll be starting over.

One thing about the SFO, is we are not subject to the religious Franciscans, except by respect. We report directly to the Vatican, technically. I think that’s kind of cool, too, especially since I like to “rustle a few jimmies” now and then.