Why so much disease?

[oryxsis]

In light of a poll over in family living i would like to ask a question or two.
I have never been a very religious person but have a very open mind. I have a catholic girlfreind and because of her faith i want to begin trying to understand and come to terms with it all, and hopefully at some point become more invlolved in the catholic faith with her.

The main thing that troubles me though with believing in god, heaven etc is all of the disease, cancer, disabilities, kids born with disabilities etc that this world has. how could a loving god create all of these things and let us suffer so much?.

i mean when a child is born with a disability and has a very limited and short life, what did they do to deserve being given these problems?, why does a loving god create these terrible things?
Thankyou for any insight you may provide for me.

 

[Magicsilence]

Hi oryxsis. Welcome to the forums. Please ask away, thats what we are here for. If anyone seems a little defensive or rude, pleae have patience. We are all sinners!

Getting back to the question.

I think what you are really asking is:

Why isnt everything perfect?

A child having cancer is pretty bad, a child who broke their leg is a little less bad, a child who grazes their hand is considered normalish, and a child who bumps into someone else (but hurts their leg a bit) is considered normal.

It is all measured to a degree.

We complain about serious suffering, but accept little suffering.

Would a loving God allow a child to graze their knee?

Yes / No.

Would a loving God allow anyone to die? (knowing the suffering others experience because of it)

Yes / No.

What Im trying to get at, is that suffering is an integral part of our lives. As Catholics we believe that through the Original Sin of Adam in the garden of Eden suffering was brought into the world. All suffering came through his disobedience to God.

The issue of disease is only subjective. How serious does a disease have to be before God is seen to be cruel??

The problem with the question is that it does not address the issue of minor suffering.

Have you ever waited in a queue to buy something and the line next to you moved faster? Did you suffer from it, even just a teeny weeny bit? If so, and you think that is compatible with a loving God, then you shouldnt have any problems with serious disease. It is simply more suffering.

In Christ.

Andre.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Originally created flawless, human nature became corrupted and subject to the diseases and deformities you speak of when our first parents (Adam and Eve), tempted by the devil, freely chose to disobey God’s command, committing the Original Sin. This is described using symbolic language in the first three chapters of the book of Genesis, the first book of the Bible.

This is also touched upon in the Catholic Answers article God’s Love For You.
%between%

 

[Hitetlen]

Magicsilence:

It is all measured to a degree. We complain about serious suffering, but accept little suffering.The point is not really the question of degree, rather the possible beneficial side effects. If the pain has a beneficial side effect, it can be justified. If the pain has no beneficial side effect, it cannot be justified. Moreover, it is not enough that a pain had any positive side effect, it has to be large enough that the sufferer would agree that it was worth it. This is the real question.

 

[Magicsilence]

Hitetlen:

The point is not really the question of degree, rather the possible beneficial side effects. If the pain has a beneficial side effect, it can be justified. If the pain has no beneficial side effect, it cannot be justified. Moreover, it is not enough that a pain had any positive side effect, it has to be large enough that the sufferer would agree that it was worth it. This is the real question.

?

Sometimes we dont have a choice about pain.

If i go bike riding and break my leg there is no positive side to it?

Maybe im missing what youre saying.

In Christ.

Andre.

 

[Magicsilence]

Hitetlen:
The point is not really the question of degree, rather the possible beneficial side effects. If the pain has a beneficial side effect, it can be justified.

Pain is more often that not seperated from any benefit, and is the result of an accident, illness etc…

If the pain has no beneficial side effect, it cannot be justified.

Perhaps, but not avoided.

Moreover, it is not enough that a pain had any positive side effect, it has to be large enough that the sufferer would agree that it was worth it. This is the real question.

Again, most suffering is not a choice. Hence = suffering.

If it was a choice and was for a greater benefit, the person may be in pain, but are gaining more than they stand to lose.

In Christ.

Andre.

 

[Hitetlen]

Magicsilence:

Maybe im missing what youre saying.

It is possible, my post was not very detailed. I opened a thread recently about God’s benevolence vs. pain and suffering.

The premise is: an omnibenevolent being does not allow gratituous pain and suffering. If a pain can be alleviated or avoided, a benevolent (and omnipotent) being would eliminate it.

Allegedly, some pains cannot be eliminated because their elimination would bring along even worse consequences, or their elimination would prevent some greater good from happening. These are called justified pains.

If God is considered benevolent, then only justified pains exist in the world. If you want me to go into more detail, I will be glad to do so.

 

[Magicsilence]

Hitetlen:
It is possible, my post was not very detailed. I opened a thread recently about God’s benevolence vs. pain and suffering.

The premise is: an omnibenevolent being does not allow gratituous pain and suffering. If a pain can be alleviated or avoided, a benevolent (and omnipotent) being would eliminate it.

Allegedly, some pains cannot be eliminated because their elimination would bring along even worse consequences, or their elimination would prevent some greater good from happening. These are called justified pains.

If God is considered benevolent, then only justified pains exist in the world. If you want me to go into more detail, I will be glad to do so.

What makes you think there is anything other than justified pain in the world?

In Christ.

Andre.

 

[Hitetlen]

Magicsilence:

What makes you think there is anything other than justified pain in the world?

I just gave an example in the other thread. I will copy it here:

Suppose that someone survives an explosion on a boat. He suffers (in delirious pain, half unconscious) for a long time before he is torn into pieces by sharks. If God deemed it was his time to go, he could have arranged that he died in the explosion itself. It would not have mattered either way, so his prolonged suffering had no purpose. No one ever learned about his fate, so we can exclude some unspecified benefit for others. To allow such a fate is cruel in my book. Is it in yours?

 

[Magicsilence]

Hitetlen:
I just gave an example in the other thread. I will copy it here:

Suppose that someone survives an explosion on a boat. He suffers (in delirious pain, half unconscious) for a long time before he is torn into pieces by sharks. If God deemed it was his time to go, he could have arranged that he died in the explosion itself. It would not have mattered either way, so his prolonged suffering had no purpose. No one ever learned about his fate, so we can exclude some unspecified benefit for others. To allow such a fate is cruel in my book. Is it in yours?

Since you have thrown up an example, Im sure you wont mind me assuming some things about it.

The explosion came just as he was about to murder someone. God prevented this heinous crime. And shocked the would be murderer to his senses.

Lying in pain, he looks up to God and begs for forgiveness. The Lord offers Him a choice. Die and come into the Kingdom of God, or a rescue boat will be sent but his salvation will not be secure. When God offers Him the choice of a heart attack, he looks up and begs the Lord for any suffering he can endure for Christ.

Cue : the sharks.

I know its unlikely, but then so was your example. And if I profess a faith in Christ I have to be able to say that I have faith that anything through Him is possible.

In Christ.

Andre.

 

[Hitetlen]

Magicsilence:

Since you have thrown up an example, Im sure you wont mind me assuming some things about it.

The explosion came just as he was about to murder someone. God prevented this heinous crime. And shocked the would be murderer to his senses.

Lying in pain, he looks up to God and begs for forgiveness. The Lord offers Him a choice. Die and come into the Kingdom of God, or a rescue boat will be sent but his salvation will not be secure. When God offers Him the choice of a heart attack, he looks up and begs the Lord for any suffering he can endure for Christ.

Cue : the sharks.

I know its unlikely, but then so was your example. And if I profess a faith in Christ I have to be able to say that I have faith that anything through Him is possible.

Why did you feel the need to change the example? It was created as is. He was alone on the boat. He was delirious with pain and not in the condition to think clearly so he could not pray.

Maybe he was a devout Catholic, who just went onto the boat immediately after having had a confession and received absolution. His trip was to rescue someone who was stuck on a nearby island.

Do you have some explanation for the original scenario? True, the example was not very probable, though it was not improbable either. I could have brought up the wars, rapes, genocides, wildfires, earthquakes, tsunamis etc. but I chose a simple, well defined scenario so there would be no unknowns. Can you contend that it was benevolent to let him suffer and not give him a quick and easy way out?

 

[Magicsilence]

Hitetlen:

Why did you feel the need to change the example? It was created as is. He was alone on the boat. He was delirious with pain and not in the condition to think clearly so he could not pray.

Maybe he was a devout Catholic, who just went onto the boat immediately after having had a confession and received absolution. His trip was to rescue someone who was stuck on a nearby island.

Do you have some explanation for the original scenario? True, the example was not very probable, though it was not improbable either. I could have brought up the wars, rapes, genocides, wildfires, earthquakes, tsunamis etc. but I chose a simple, well defined scenario so there would be no unknowns. Can you contend that it was benevolent to let him suffer and not give him a quick and easy way out?

The boat exploded due to a technical fault.

Where he was standing resulted in the injuries.

And any pain was a results of those injuries.

If they hit nerves, but no major blood vessels he wouldnt have died.

Sharks eat things with blood coming out of them.

Its all logical.

Are you suggesting that God should interfere every time something we do causes a problem?

The pain was unnecessary yes, but i dont think as Catholics we believe that God strikes out all unnecessary pain.

He gave Eve pain in childbirth as a result of her disobedience.

All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

So technically, anything we get is deserved.

In Christ.

Andre.

 

[Hitetlen]

I certainly applaud your directness and lack of evasion.

Magicsilence:

Are you suggesting that God should interfere every time something we do causes a problem?

Yes, indeed, that is what I suggest.

Magicsilence:

The pain was unnecessary yes, but i dont think as Catholics we believe that God strikes out all unnecessary pain.

Many do, after all it is the quintessential defense against the “problem of evil”.

Magicsilence:
So technically, anything we get is deserved.What you say is that God’s justice trumps his benevolence. Even if I accepted this, it would still not explain the suffering of animals. Many of them perish in fires (for example). They are certainly not to blame for anything, they were not disobedient.

Why is their suffering not eliminated? And please, I beg of you, don’t say that their fate is just a “collateral damage” to the original sin. I find this concept highly hypocritical and very, very heartless. If God would allow “collateral damage”, that would really invalidate his benevolence.

 

[rwoehmke]

Hitetlen:

I just gave an example in the other thread. I will copy it here:

Suppose that someone survives an explosion on a boat. He suffers (in delirious pain, half unconscious) for a long time before he is torn into pieces by sharks. If God deemed it was his time to go, he could have arranged that he died in the explosion itself. It would not have mattered either way, so his prolonged suffering had no purpose. No one ever learned about his fate, so we can exclude some unspecified benefit for others. To allow such a fate is cruel in my book. Is it in yours?

Explosion on a boat? The dumb idjit screwed something up and God had little to do with what happened. Cancer caused by God? I believe its caused by the nasty stuff we have pumped into our environment which impacts our DNA. Even cave guys breathed smoke and got into nasty stuff. S.T. Diseases? Guess what! God IMO created a world without disease. We brung it on ourselves.

 

[Rebecca_New]

Hitetlen:

I just gave an example in the other thread. I will copy it here:

Suppose that someone survives an explosion on a boat. He suffers (in delirious pain, half unconscious) for a long time before he is torn into pieces by sharks. If God deemed it was his time to go, he could have arranged that he died in the explosion itself. It would not have mattered either way, so his prolonged suffering had no purpose. No one ever learned about his fate, so we can exclude some unspecified benefit for others. To allow such a fate is cruel in my book. Is it in yours?

Maybe this person did die in the explosion, and it was only the body that was eaten by the sharks. How did Daniel live through the flames. At what point does Jesus come to our rescue? Maybe that person died even before the explosion. The half of the unconscious body we see is the sinful body, the feeling parts of the body are already in the arms of Jesus. We do not know.

 

[buffalo]

Suffering purifies the soul. God permits these things because He loves us so much He gave us free will. After the fall suffering became part of life.

 

[Magicsilence]

Hitetlen:
I certainly applaud your directness and lack of evasion.

I dont like it when people beat around the bush. If we profess the Truth, there will be an answer. What have i to fear?

Yes, indeed, that is what I suggest.

Evidently, God does not interfere. I already told you that God punished Eve as a result of her disobedience.

Many do, after all it is the quintessential defense against the “problem of evil”.

Hmm, I definitely do not think this is Church teaching. The wages of sin are suffering and death. This is what we believe.

What you say is that God’s justice trumps his benevolence. Even if I accepted this, it would still not explain the suffering of animals. Many of them perish in fires (for example). They are certainly not to blame for anything, they were not disobedient.

You can take any example in the world and say "look see, Gods (insert word) trumps his (insert other quality).

Why is their suffering not eliminated? And please, I beg of you, don’t say that their fate is just a “collateral damage” to the original sin. I find this concept highly hypocritical and very, very heartless. If God would allow “collateral damage”, that would really invalidate his benevolence.

Why should it be eliminated. WE do live in a fallen world. Pain and suffering are a direct result of the fall. Are you suggesting that all animals live in harmony and drink vitamin drinks all day long in beauty spas.?

Is it wrong for a lion to slay a deer to live? Again, how much suffering is allowed? Pain is for our benefit you know.

Without it, we’d be walking into fires all the time. God gave the animals a nervous system to warn them from danger.

In Christ.

Andre.

 

[Hitetlen]

Magicsilence:
I dont like it when people beat around the bush. If we profess the Truth, there will be an answer. What have i to fear?Not a thing from me, that is for sure.

Magicsilence:

Evidently, God does not interfere. I already told you that God punished Eve as a result of her disobedience.

You know that is a funny thing. Many members of the clergy were very adamant against using drugs to allevieate the pain of child birth. They said it directly countermands God’s expressed will. Fortunately people did not listen, and the church quitely dropped this agenda.

Magicsilence:
Hmm, I definitely do not think this is Church teaching. The wages of sin are suffering and death. This is what we believe.Possibly, but the Christian philosophers use these very agruments to support their reasoning.

Magicsilence:
You can take any example in the world and say "look see, Gods (insert word) trumps his (insert other quality).Yes, I could, and my conclusion is that the attributes if God are contradicted by our experience.

Magicsilence:
Why should it be eliminated. WE do live in a fallen world. Pain and suffering are a direct result of the fall. Are you suggesting that all animals live in harmony and drink vitamin drinks all day long in beauty spas.? But I am not talking about the carnivores eating the herbivores. I am talking about the senseless suffering of animals in fires and quakes. Are these sufferings just “collateral damage” to the “fall”?

Magicsilence:

Is it wrong for a lion to slay a deer to live? Again, how much suffering is allowed? Pain is for our benefit you know.

Without it, we’d be walking into fires all the time. God gave the animals a nervous system to warn them from danger.Yes, sometimes pain is useful. But all the time?

 

[dorothy_smith]

God allows evil in the world. Why? We don’t know why. The Church has no answer. We will never have the answer in this life.

Does God exist? I believe so. Does God ever intervene in our trials and tribulations? Not in the way we can understand. However, I do believe that He sends us signs/messages.

Does the Church have any answers at all? I haven’t been convinced of anything so far.

 

[zian]

The main thing that troubles me though with believing in god, heaven etc is all of the disease, cancer, disabilities, kids born with disabilities etc that this world has. how could a loving god create all of these things and let us suffer so much?.

i mean when a child is born with a disability and has a very limited and short life, what did they do to deserve being given these problems?, why does a loving god create these terrible things?
Thankyou for any insight you may provide for me.

If you want simple answers, I can’t give them to you.

Recommend you read C. S. Lewis’ “The Problem of Pain” and Peter Kreeft’s “Making Sense Out of Suffering”. Slim volumes that can be very helpful to you, perhaps.