Why was the Universe created when it was?

[catholic1seeks]

PHILOSPHERS OF ALL STAGES WANTED!

Another question.
*

Why was God’s physical creation–the entire universe–created when it was?

This problem gets my head thrown into a tub of CONFUSION.

God is infinite. He has always had His plan. It wasn’t that God was bored at one time and decided to create the universe. Of course not; this would create two problems:

[1] This creates the belief that God didn’t always have His plan
[2] This creates that belief that God is limited to time

But why was the universe created at a particular “time”? It’s “this-many” years old. I guess I don’t understand what it means for God to be infinite. But the only way I can see it is that the universe was created a particular “point”.

Can someone explain this? If God is NOT limited to time, than how could He create at one instant?*

 

[Sam_Maloney]

I’m not sure there was ‘time’ before the existence of the physical universe.

I don’t wish to be dismissive of a point that’s obviously important to you, but it seems to me a bit like an ‘angels on the head of a pin’ question that really doesn’t have much bearing on… well… anything.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

PHILOSPHERS OF ALL STAGES WANTED!

Another question.
*

Why was God’s physical creation–the entire universe–created when it was?

God is infinite. He has always had His plan. It wasn’t that God was bored at one time and decided to create the universe. Of course not; this would create two problems:

[1] This creates the belief that God didn’t always have His plan
[2] This creates that belief that God is limited to time

But why was the universe created at a particular “time”?

Can someone explain this? If God is NOT limited to time, than how could He create at one instant?*

Hi,

I certainly cannot answer it for you, but it is an interesting question.

Perhaps I would consider that it was God’s plan in relation to the timing of other supernatural events that are not typically considered in our “natural” world.

I use the word “timing” there very loosely, speaking in terms we understand about something which we probably don’t understand very well. But the word fits to make my point, I believe.

 

[Nickkname]

PHILOSPHERS OF ALL STAGES WANTED!

Another question.
*

Why was God’s physical creation–the entire universe–created when it was?

This problem gets my head thrown into a tub of CONFUSION.

God is infinite. He has always had His plan. It wasn’t that God was bored at one time and decided to create the universe. Of course not; this would create two problems:

[1] This creates the belief that God didn’t always have His plan
[2] This creates that belief that God is limited to time

But why was the universe created at a particular “time”? It’s “this-many” years old. I guess I don’t understand what it means for God to be infinite. But the only way I can see it is that the universe was created a particular “point”.

Can someone explain this? If God is NOT limited to time, than how could He create at one instant?*

Simple: God created the Universe when He did out of mercy. He knew it was the right “moment” (I’m using that in comparison to His eternity, since there was no time before the Universe), so He created the Universe. That’s the best explanation I can think up.

Edit: God created the Universe for man, so He must have created it in knowledge of man, that is, He knew everything that we would think of the Universe - how it began, the age of the Universe, etc. - so in His mercy He created the Universe when He did for us men.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I’m not sure there was ‘time’ before the existence of the physical universe.

I don’t wish to be dismissive of a point that’s obviously important to you, but it seems to me a bit like an ‘angels on the head of a pin’ question that really doesn’t have much bearing on… well… anything.

I agree. It is my understanding that time was created as a part of the universe.

 

[JimG]

God didn’t create the universe at a particular time.

At the instant of creation, time and space were also created. So “before” creation, there was no “before,” and there was no time or space.

Actually from a physical point of view, we might say that time and space are embedded in creation, and in the beginning might not have been distinct. Even now, when one gets to smaller than Planck lengths and smaller than Planck time intervals, the structure of time and space breaks down so that one cannot tell one from the other. (Presumably they can ultimately be unified with matter and energy in a big TOE theory–i.e. theory of everything.)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

God didn’t create the universe at a particular time.

At the instant of creation, time and space were also created. So “before” creation, there was no “before,” and there was no time or space.

So, in other words:

THERE WAS NEVER A TIME WHEN THE UNIVERSE DID NOT EXIST.

I read this from a great book called “Theology and Sanity,” where he talks about how there was no “before” or “when” God created the universe (including time itself).

 

[JimG]

So, in other words:

THERE WAS NEVER A TIME WHEN THE UNIVERSE DID NOT EXIST.

I read this from a great book called “Theology and Sanity,” where he talks about how there was no “before” or “when” God created the universe (including time itself).

Yes, or another way of putting it is that there was never “time” until creation.

 

[Contarini]

If God is NOT limited to time, than how could He create at one instant?

God doesn’t “create at one instant.” He creates time, which is to say that He creates every instant. Without time, there is no “instant” at which to create. There is just the timeless being of God.

Edwin

 

[crowonsnow]

God doesn’t “create at one instant.” He creates time, which is to say that He creates every instant. Without time, there is no “instant” at which to create. There is just the timeless being of God.

That’s religion speaking. Scientifically speaking the universe is about 14 billion years old. Oddly enough, there was a time when the universe existed but when years did not, because the earth was not around in its present configuration until about 4.5 billion of those years ago.

I don’t see how the OP can ever be addressed because a spirit that is believed to be unbound by scientific principles could be recreating the universe every trillionth of a second, but only making it appear to be older.

 

[Nickkname]

That’s religion speaking. Scientifically speaking the universe is about 14 billion years old. Oddly enough, there was a time when the universe existed but when years did not, because the earth was not around in its present configuration until about 4.5 billion of those years ago.

I don’t see how the OP can ever be addressed because a spirit that is believed to be unbound by scientific principles could be recreating the universe every trillionth of a second, but only making it appear to be older.

God is immune to orders and needs, it’s true, but in order for Him to recreate the Universe every trillionth of a second would require Him to become incarante and live on Earth every trillionth of a second, since it was in the Image of His Son Incarante (Jesus) that God created man and the Universe.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

PHILOSPHERS OF ALL STAGES WANTED!

Another question.
*

Why was God’s physical creation–the entire universe–created when* it was?

That is an improper question, very like “What does blue smell like?”



Our universe IS some number of milliseconds old, but since it was created “during” eternity, which isn’t breakable into “time segments” it was created “during” ALL eternity.

Just consider eternity to be one big “instant”. The Causeless Cause caused the universe of causes in the one “instant”, aka eternity, when that causation was possible.

To overly cogitate on this does your bloodpressure, and your understanding of it, absolutely no good!

 

[catholic1seeks]

Please don’t make me look dumb!

HA!

You don’t know how confused I am, especially about the "there was never a time when the universe did not exsist."

 

[CatsAndDogs]

You don’t know how confused I am, especially about the "there was never a time when the universe did not exsist."

OK. Calm down!

No need to be confused. Just remember, if there’s no “time”, there can’t be a “before”, because “befores” need to be in “time”.

Eternity is not a “time”. It is (what would appear to us non-God types) one big moment. There are no “befores” in eternity because “befores” need to be in something other than eternity. They need to be in “time”.

OK, then. That’s as clear as pomeranian pooh, I imagine.

If you’re still confused, ask me more questions, and we’ll see if we can’t narrow down what it is that is confusing you.

 

[Nickkname]

I think I fgured it out - as much as a human can figure it out, at least. Not to say I’m a genius or anything.

Okay, it is not that the Universe has always existed or that eternity is just one big moment before creation. Now I think it is, and some saints do agree with this as I found out, that before God created the Universe, He held it in His Mind. that is, the Universe has always existed in God’s Mind, and than, He made the Universe real, He created what already was in His Mind.

That’s what I’ve figured after some meditation on the work of creation…but I could be wrong.

And really this is just my meditation. I have no real idea “when” the Universe was created, and I think we’ll only know that “when” in Heaven. But maybe God created the Universe after He thought up everything, humanly speaking, and foresaw it unraveling from Jesus Christ, past and present, again humanly speakingly?

 

[Reformed_Rob]

I think I fgured it out - as much as a human can figure it out, at least. Not to say I’m a genius or anything.

Okay, it is not that the Universe has always existed or that eternity is just one big moment before creation. Now I think it is, and some saints do agree with this as I found out, that before God created the Universe, He held it in His Mind. that is, the Universe has always existed in God’s Mind, and than, He made the Universe real, He created what already was in His Mind.

That’s what I’ve figured after some meditation on the work of creation…but I could be wrong.

That is a good explanation from a Platonic perspective. And many early Church thinkers on the topic would have approached it from such a perspective. Which is fine.

I keep coming back to “why it would be created at a certain time” … but it looks like we have ruled out a “when” before creation of the universe.

If there is time in eternity, then why can’t there be time in pre-Creation?

 

[Contarini]

That’s religion speaking.

Or rather, philosophy. The view I expressed is not unique to Christians–indeed, some Christians would claim that it’s not really Biblical and is derived from pagan philosophy.

Scientifically speaking the universe is about 14 billion years old. Oddly enough, there was a time when the universe existed but when years did not, because the earth was not around in its present configuration until about 4.5 billion of those years ago.

I’m not sure how any of this contradicts, or even interacts with, what I said. (I presume that you are not so silly as to think that you can’t have time without having years?)

I don’t see how the OP can ever be addressed because a spirit that is believed to be unbound by scientific principles could be recreating the universe every trillionth of a second, but only making it appear to be older.

You are assuming that “scientific principles” are the same as reason. They aren’t. God is not bound by “scientific principles,” because science is simply the study of creation, and obviously God is not bound by His own creation. However, God is identical with Reason, so He does not behave irrationally or arbitrarily. Of course, I can’t say with certainty that recreating the universe every microsecond would be irrational or arbitrary, but there is no reason to postulate that this is what God is doing. The point is that since God is rational–indeed, is reason itself–we can use our reason to try to understand Him, although we will succeed only imperfectly.

Edwin

 

[JDaniel]

God is: “always.” Time does not and cannot exist until He creates the universe. Why? Time is the measure of motion, so, until matter (and space) exists, there is no motion, hence no time. Time was born simultaneously with matter, space, and energy.

God simply began the universe. Notwithstanding that time does exist for man (and the universe), there is no time, or time-line, for God, thus the questions “why and when” are absurd. God is not bounded by time: He is outside of time.

Time, as understood by our human intellect, is a concept with limitations because we are finite creatures with finite comprehensions. The concept of “always,” it appears, is impossible for us to fully conceive of without coloring it with some finitude. Time, therefore, as our intellects decode it at any moment, is a transfinite.

God is infinite. The concept of “infinite,” as it relates to God, is not the same as what we find defined in and for quantum mathematics. The universe may be infinite, according to quantum mathematics, but, at any point in time, it is merely transfinite. For quantum mathematics, the universe’s “infinity” must exist in time. God’s “infinity” is under no such constraints.

If God were bounded by time, He would not be truly infinite. He would be a huge, but finite thing. While it is remotely possible that a transfinite thing could create a universe (in a sort of sci-fi scenario), other questions would be forever present: How did it get here? What caused it? When did it get here? How long will it survive? What is out relationship to it? Where did it come from?

God cease to be the First and Un-caused Cause. He would cease to be the Prime Mover.

Now, take an aspirin, pour yourself a cup of tea and just relax.

 

[crowonsnow]

Or rather, philosophy. The view I expressed is not unique to Christians–indeed, some Christians would claim that it’s not really Biblical and is derived from pagan philosophy.

Sure. I’m of the view though that religion is religion. The names change because culture evolves, but the main themes remain fairly intact. The detail in our knowledge increases allowing us to put aside silly notions like succubi, but these fantasies can still remain vehicles that carry and teach more important cultural values.

I’m not sure how any of this contradicts, or even interacts with, what I said. (I presume that you are not so silly as to think that you can’t have time without having years?)

Time is time, which is space, which is spacetime. From a standpoint of physics it is not divisible, at least not with our present understanding. String theory gets into rips in spacetime, however.

I only wanted to point out the provincial method we use on our planet to measure spacetime. It would be as if a single stomata on a single leaf on a single branch on a single tree in a single forest measured time and the cosmos by its opening and closing.

You are assuming that “scientific principles” are the same as reason. They aren’t. God is not bound by “scientific principles,” because science is simply the study of creation, and obviously God is not bound by His own creation. However, God is identical with Reason, so He does not behave irrationally or arbitrarily. Of course, I can’t say with certainty that recreating the universe every microsecond would be irrational or arbitrary, but there is no reason to postulate that this is what God is doing. The point is that since God is rational–indeed, is reason itself–we can use our reason to try to understand Him, although we will succeed only imperfectly.

Because these alleged spirits can be anything and everything to whomever and whenever, the question in the OP can never be addressed using spirits. I’d add that one cannot be unscientific and rational at the same time, as a spirit must be. I think that a rational person can choose to act irrationally at times because it just feels good, yet remain on the whole a rational person.

 

[tobias]

Time is the measure of motion, so, until matter (and space) exists, there is no motion, hence no time. Time was born simultaneously with matter, space, and energy.

:tiphat: :clapping: Exactly