Why were Apostles not baptized again in the name of Jesus?

[PJM]

My opinion isn’t widely held view and I’m still working on the syllogism so no doubt there’s work yet to be done. I’ll offer it up here to see how well it is received. I feel that the Jew in the day of Christ would have understood the symbolism. I hold that the Apostles were the “loaves of proposition.” Unlike the Leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees, these twelve were the only loaves that the Son of David, The Messiah, found within his temple. (Cf. 1 Sam 21:6). Recall that David went to the high priest Achimelech for bread. The only bread was the “proposition loaves.” These loves were unleavened, uncommon bread; the holy bread to be consumed for subsistence only by the high priests.

Like many, when I first considered the Shewbread I thought it prefigured the Eucharist. But, this conflicted with scriptue where, for example, Christ said in John 6:55 “For my flesh is meat indeed and my blood is drink indeed.” And in Paul’s letter to the Hebrews where he speaks of a flesh sacrifice with blood. Old Testament sacrifices were of two forms, real and spiritual. The spiritual were the offering of prayers, and the like, as a form of sacrifice. The real was animal sacrifice of meat. I’m told that most always the more efficient was taken to be the animal sacrifice; therefore Old Testament writers distinguished the two by with the reference to the adjoining blood sacrifice. Consequently, we can see that Christ was referring to a real sacrifice on Passover to be made first born (the New Adam and High Priest) of Him as ‘meat’ and blood. Elsewhere, we are told that He is the perfect sacrificial lamb. While every Protestant that ever protested would definitely protest, this is what Catholics believe. The conflict with the 12 loaves should be obvious, bread is bread and meat is meat. Christ would be prefigured as the sacrificial lamb in the Temple of Moses. Thus we can scratch at least one object off of the list of items in Moses’ Tent; Christ is the perfect sacrificial lamb seen in the Tabernacle.

Examining Exodus 40 we see the Tabernacle (the residence of God on earth) was established for the first time. A veil or curtain separates the ark from the priests. Loaves of bread were stacked on a table in front of the curtain in two stacks of 6 for a total of 12 loaves in the presence of God (Cf. Lev. 24:8). Each loaf “shall take also fine flour …two tenths [of an ephah] shall be in every loaf.” (Lev 24:5-6). An ‘ephah’ is approximately equal to a 10-gallon dry measure bushel. Each loaf was made with 2-gallons of sifted flour which of course excluded all the tars – the purest of breads. The bread was unleavened and oven backed; it’s my understanding that the baking occurred in special ovens. Then each loaf was sprinkled with pure frankincense. The loaves were placed on a “table in the tabernacle of the testimony, at the north side, without the veil, Setting there in order the loaves of proposition, as the Lord had commanded Moses” (Cf. Ex. 40:20,21). The 2 rows of bread were a “memorial of the oblation of the Lord.” (Cf. Lev 24:7). Each Sabbath the bread was removed and replenished with twelve new loaves. Aaron and his priests (only those spiritually clean – presumably through the spiritual purification Mikvah) eat the loaves which made them spiritually pure to teach the God’s Law, God’s Word. Likewise, the twelve Apostles were the loaves “in the presence of God,” exposed to the Logos. These men became the holiest of sacrifices in New Covenant; bread made of sieved wheat with the absence of tars, pure and spiritually purified as a teaching memorial of Christ’s perfect sacrifice.

If we hold that Christ was the fulfillment of the Old Testament then each and everything he did should be related to the temple. So, we see the 12 Apostles “in the presence of God;” the holiest of sacrifices in the temple; bread made of wheat sieved multiple times, i.e. separation of wheat and tars, priests on the order of Aaron. Holding the bread Christ said “this is my body,” the twelve holy loves were present – facing God, “face bread.” In Matthew is the appearance of the loaves first time (the Apostles) in the presence of God who unveils Himself; “who do you say that I am.” These loaves were to be consumed by the people each and every time they preached; they nourish the faithful with the knowledge of the real flesh and blood of Christ. At the end of their time on earth new freshly baked loaves replace them, the succession of their office.

It’s my opinion this adds a new dimension to standing before the tabernacle at church. When we partake of the “real presence,” the body, soul and Divinity of Christ, we are participating in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant; hope revealed to us by the Apostles.

JoeT

Joe, very weel done.

I had made the connect between the 12 loafs and the 12 tribes nd h 12 Apostles, but yor far more articulate than me.

Very well done.

The most interesting, to me, [maybe even shocking {small ‘s"}] statement in Exodus is 16:12 "I have heard the murmurings of the people of Israel; say to them, `At twilight you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; then you shall know that I am the LORD your God.’"

We often hear of he “manna” but seldom that God provided flesh for there sustanance.

Take and add this to your insights, and the 12 “holy loafs” symbolizing, as being “fed” from and by 12 holy Apostles, keeping in mind there relationship with the Tabernacle [The Ark], and we have a “WOW factor”

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[JoeT777]

Joe, very weel done.

I had made the connect between the 12 loafs and the 12 tribes and the 12 Apostles, but you’re far more articulate than me.

Very well done;

The most interesting, to me, [maybe even shocking {small ‘s"}] statement in Exodus is 16:12 "I have heard the murmurings of the people of Israel; say to them, `At twilight you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; then you shall know that I am the LORD your God.’"

We often hear of the “manna” but seldom that God provided flesh for there sustenance.

Take and add this to your insights, and the 12 “holy loaves” symbolizing, as being “fed” from and by 12 holy Apostles, keeping in mind their relationship with the Tabernacle [The Ark], and we have a “WOW factor”

Love and prayers,
Pat

Pat, et al:

I don’t think we’re done yet. All we’ve done so far is to connect Twelve loaves to the Twelve Apostles. Now we need to connect the Twelve loaves to a Christian baptism or an acceptable equivalent other than John’s baptism. Let’s hear your thoughts.

I hadn’t picked up on this particular verse in Exodus – but on the surface you could almost substitute ‘Apostles’ for ‘bread’. I’m going to start jotting down verses like these as I come across’em. It might add a layer of depth to the meaning of Scripture to collect those verses that can relate directly to the Twelve Apostles as Loaves or that may have a double meaning Eucharist/Loaves. I think there is a gold mine in the New Testament – being as there are a lot of ‘bread’ references. The hard part is to separate the Eucharist from the Loaves. I’m not sure what you can make out of all of this, nevertheless it is very interesting.

In fun, let me change the subject to say that I may have been born in a barn with ‘See Rock City’ painted on the roof, but that wasn’t yesterday. Why are the numbers bothering me? Maybe you can shed some light on the matter.

Let me try to explain, have you ever heard the catchphrase made famous by a talk show host, “words mean things"? In my profession, I too have a ‘talent on loan from God’ and I’ve also developed a similar refrain, “numbers mean things". For example, I’m standing on the edge of a precipice wanting to step off. I’m told it is 6 to the bottom. Well, ok six what? If its 6-inches then I know I’m not far from the bottom; further, I can deduce that it’s likely I’m about to step off of a curb – no big deal right? But, now I’m told its 6-hundred feet to the bottom. Now, I’ve got something to worry about – you might say one small step for mankind, the last giant leap for JoeT – from this perspective not a good thing! Statistics are much the same way. For example, if you take the number of times a thread is viewed and divide it by the number of posts, you get a ratio usually (but not always) indicating the intensity of the readers’ attention. But, you don’t have any idea if this attention is because the thread is interesting or if there is a controversy being discussed. So, you jump in and follow the conversation to what’s going on.

I picked this thread partly because the topic interests me. However, it didn’t go un-noticed that the view vs. post ratio was high, somewhere just under 30 – a number that indicates an obvious curiosity on the part of the readers. I’ve joined forums such as this since Al Gore and I invented the internet and as a casual interest developed some statistical norms. The average high v/p is 20, the average low is 5, and the norm would fall between 8 and 12. Now these benchmarks are based on my experiences on other forums and we could conclude that the benchmark are wrong. Nevertheless, you can see why I noticed what appears to be an anomaly with a ratio of v/p as high as 30 before my participation. Early this morning I noticed that this thread had a v/p ratio of around 45 or 1.5 times higher than when I started participating. I’ve never experienced this before. I can’t explain it as being a result of my insightful or my great and wondrous rhetoric; simply because I’m not insightful, nor great, nor wondrous.

Ok, so what’s going on? Let me in on the joke; I love a good joke even if I’m the butt of it. Or, have I stepped on somebody’s sensibilities?

What do these numbers mean, if anything?

JoeT

 

[JoeT777]

At or near the point where the New Covenant and the Old Convent join for the first time outside of prophesy should also be the juncture of the Apostles/Loaves. I think most theologians would agree that that point where Heaven consummates Christ’s ministry occurs at John’s Baptism. Notice that I’m not saying that Christ is MADE divine, He’s already divine, but rather this is where, like David who consummates the new Temple, Christ initiates his Kingdom. In short this is the consummation of the Kingdom of God, the NEW TEMPLE in the New Covenant, i.e., the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

“The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord’s throne is in heaven.” But the residence God on earth is in Moses’ Tabernacle. If God is present on earth then he must domicile in his Tabernacle and the contents of that Tabernacle must also be present. God promised Moses a Kingdom till the end of times, there is no scriptural reference to the nullification in so far as I know. Moses is told, “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6), which is the Old Testament equivalent of Matt 16:18. The promise made to Moses is an integral part of the Old Testament. The Jewish Kingdom was both a spiritual and temporal Kingdom with a priestly hierarchy; the Jews were to be governed by their priests. It was these that Christ was addressing when he spoke of the hypocritical Pharisee, not the faithful. It was these that were leading the faithful astray suggesting that they wear their faith in the form of customs and rituals as opposed to internalizing their faith.

Then comes Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by you, and you come to me? And Jesus answering, said to him: Allow it to be so now. For so it becomes us to fulfil all justice. Then he allowed him. And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. And behold a voice from heaven saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matt 3:13-17)​

Christ didn’t overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one; in fact He couldn’t because His ministry was the fulfillment of that very same Old Covenant, indeed what is given is the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King. To overthrow this Kingdom would have been to overthrow Himself, a ludicrous idea – but nonetheless put forward by the Core, Dathan, and Abiron of our present day (a.k.a. Protestant). However what Christ was about to do was to turn over the ‘Key’ of the Kingdom to a new tenant, today’s Catholic Church; the all inclusive (Jew and gentile) Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church. Which is the reason that in Matthew’s gospel, we hear Christ say, “I say to you [the Pharisees] that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.” This too was the pronouncement of Mt. Sinai. And too, like that provided for Moses, a special manna is provided. But, a rebirth; not renewed but birthed again – how asks Nicodemus, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born again,” – a stupid question coming from a Jewish intellectual isn’t it - surly he thought, certainly not with Moses’ manna, if you recall “they ate manna, and are dead.” Christ gave us something much better, not only did he give us meat for the hunger of the soul but he gave us ‘bread’ to feed our faith, a bread of hope (Hope is what? The desire of thing known but not yet possessed?) The Twelve Apostles are the loaves of hope, though devoured in sleep, continually replenished; still manna for a vision of God. Does Nicodemus understand how a man can be‘re-born’ now?

He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire; whose fan is in his hand; and he will purge his floor and will gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire." (Luke 3:16-17)​

But, what of the ‘fire’? We need to be born of water and fire – sounds dumb doesn’t it? Water douses fire, and fire dries up water and turns it to a vapor. I wonder what’s being referred to here, is this the same fire in Acts 2 – I don’t think so – well ok, symbolically maybe, but it’s not the protester’s ‘baptism by fire.’ It’s manna from Heaven, hope from your Bishop in Rome.

JoeT

45.3​

 

[JoeT777]

I’ve been avoiding concentrating on Psalm 29 (28) although I’ve alluded to it several times. It’s not that’s there is anything particularly difficult, except for the imagery, metaphors, the intent of the Psalter written some 3,600 years ago, who is reaching across, what maybe, a half-dozen languages, reaching into my culture that couldn’t even be fathomed at the time; a culture of magicians that can fly, turn lead to gold, snatch the breathlessness from death, and dumb as snake oil. (Have you ever tried to sell oil to a snake?). All seriousness aside, is it difficult? Not a bit. Just have a piece of bread, cup of coffee, study it out a bit and it’ll all comes clear, (maybe – after a half-pot; maybe with drink a bit stronger).

Foggy thoughts: The connection of the Twelve Apostles/Loaves to the beginning of the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New Covenant hasn’t been shown yet. Simply knowing that Christ is the Kingdom of God and knowing that The Twelve are the ‘loaves of proposition’ doesn’t connect necessarily connect the two to the same point in time. Furthermore, there is still the issue of the baptism of the Twelve; scriptures aren’t clear, a bit obscure, you might say foggy.

Bring to the Lord, O you children of God: bring to the Lord the offspring of rams. 2 Bring to the Lord glory and honour: bring to the Lord glory to his name: adore the Lord in his holy court. 3 The voice of the Lord is upon the waters; the God of majesty has thundered, The Lord is upon many waters. 4 The voice of the Lord is in power; the voice of the Lord in magnificence. 5 The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars: yea, the Lord shall break the cedars of Libanus. 6 And shall reduce them to pieces, as a calf of Libanus, and as the beloved son of unicorns. **7 The voice of the Lord divides the flame of fire: **8 The voice of the Lord shakes the desert: and the Lord shall shake the desert of Cades. 9 The voice of the Lord prepares the stags: and he will discover the thick woods: 10 The Lord makes the flood to dwell: and the Lord shall sit king for ever. 11 The Lord will give strength to his people: the Lord will bless his people with peace. (Psalms 29)​

The befuddlement on Psalms 29 can be eased a bit with the help of St. Augustine. Sung by David at the completion of the tabernacle, it perfects the temple. The first and second verses tell of the strength of the God’s mediator in the war against evil and sing his praises. (We’ll just take his word for it - I suppose ‘ram’ is to give the sense of strength to the ‘children of God’, i.e. the faithful.) These aren’t mere platitudes; remember the auspicious occasion where this is being sung. It could easily be described as a dedication ceremony. For David the dedication of the greatest Temple the Jewish nation had seen – it was completed it in perfection. Just a side thought: we see the completion of Christ’s ministry much the same way. The auscultation of Protestants when they hear Christ’s last words ‘it is finished,’ is to hear the gurgle to mean that no more can be done, work is done, shut the doors, go home, you can’t add more to perfection. The Kingdom of God, faith and the Mystical Body of Christ starts and ends here, the sacrifice is complete, priestly prayers and dedication can roll up on a Cross and go home – cover-it-up, put-it-away, it’s- too-hard-to-look-at type of faith. I DON’T THINK SO!!! Every English version of the bible except the Douay-Rheims Bible uses the word “finished” as Christ’s last utterance hanging on the tree. (KJV: “It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost”- in part this could be simply forcing the argument in your favor). Nevertheless yes, the Temple was finished in the sense that all the construction work had come to fruition, everything in its place, shined and spit-polished, ready for…ready for what? To FINISH, as in done or end? That doesn’t make much sense. That’s not a living faith now is it? That’s a DEAD faith stuck on a tree some 2,000-years ago. The temple was “consummated,” as in finished to perfection and ready to perform its intended function. And in the Douay-Rheims we find the consummation of Christ hanging on the tree “And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost;” a faith consummated (brought to a state of perfection) ready to be LIVED – a rebirth in yet another nuance.

Enough with diversions.

Speaking of diversions, I’m getting too long – I’ll hop off here (our monitors only allow so many words – gone over by over 500 words). I’ll pick it up on my next post.

JoeT

44.8​

 

[JoeT777]

There is a point to all this - I only hope I can get to it soon.

Continuing:

Vs. 3 & 4: The voice of the Lord is upon the waters; the God of majesty has thundered, The Lord is upon many waters. The voice of the Lord is in power; the voice of the Lord in magnificence.

This seems clear; a body of water gives us the vision of a sea of people. Consequently this might be rendered that the Lord’s voice thunders out across the sea of people, telling of the enormity of his plan for things to come – not things accomplished as in already done, but of plans for expectations greatness in us.

Vs 5 & 6 The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars: yea, the Lord shall break the cedars of Libanus. 6 And shall reduce them to pieces, as a calf of Libanus, and as the beloved son of unicorns.

As I understand it, Hebrew history seems to have been in danger of polytheism painting over it like white on rice. Consequently, Judaism was image conscientious in the sense that they defined themselves quite differently from the surrounding tribes of pagans, pantheist, polytheist, and idol worshipers. Judaism seperated itself from the ‘gods’ that defined the neighboring tribes along with the nature of their society. Having only ‘One’ God was a badge, as it were, ‘a red badge of courage,’ used to define the twelve Hebrew tribes and to set them apart.

Mt. Libanus is near where a cedar tree of “high stature” grew; it had a “height exalted above all the trees of the country and his branches were multiplied, and his boughs were elevated” Ezekiel 31:5. You might say a great and mighty tree, emblematic of pride and power. Mt. Libanus is in Lebanon in a region where the pagan god Baal (a calf idol) was worshiped. The imagery should be clear now; the voice of God will break the pride and power of the polytheist, which it just so happened that David was at war with, breaking them up into little pieces watching them jump around like a little unicorn part of their pantheon of gods, obviously an exaggeration to show how God’s word was going send them off a hopping like scared rabbits.

Speaking of scared rabbits, I’m getting too long again – I’ll hop off here (our monitors only allow so many words). I’ll pick it up on my next post.

JoeT

43.3​

 

[PJM]

=JoeT777 Pat, et al:

I don’t think we’re done yet. All we’ve done so far is to connect Twelve loaves to the Twelve Apostles. Now we need to connect the Twelve loaves to a Christian baptism or an acceptable equivalent other than John’s baptism. Let’s hear your thoughts.

I hadn’t picked up on this particular verse in Exodus – but on the surface you could almost substitute ‘Apostles’ for ‘bread’. I’m going to start jotting down verses like these as I come across’em. It might add a layer of depth to the meaning of Scripture to collect those verses that can relate directly to the Twelve Apostles as Loaves or that may have a double meaning Eucharist/Loaves. I think there is a gold mine in the New Testament – being as there are a lot of ‘bread’ references. The hard part is to separate the Eucharist from the Loaves. I’m not sure what you can make out of all of this, nevertheless it is very interesting.

In fun, let me change the subject to say that I may have been born in a barn with ‘See Rock City’ painted on the roof, but that wasn’t yesterday. Why are the numbers bothering me? Maybe you can shed some light on the matter.

Let me try to explain, have you ever heard the catchphrase made famous by a talk show host, “words mean things"? In my profession, I too have a ‘talent on loan from God’ and I’ve also developed a similar refrain, “numbers mean things". For example, I’m standing on the edge of a precipice wanting to step off. I’m told it is 6 to the bottom. Well, ok six what? If its 6-inches then I know I’m not far from the bottom; further, I can deduce that it’s likely I’m about to step off of a curb – no big deal right? But, now I’m told its 6-hundred feet to the bottom. Now, I’ve got something to worry about – you might say one small step for mankind, the last giant leap for JoeT – from this perspective not a good thing! Statistics are much the same way. For example, if you take the number of times a thread is viewed and divide it by the number of posts, you get a ratio usually (but not always) indicating the intensity of the readers’ attention. But, you don’t have any idea if this attention is because the thread is interesting or if there is a controversy being discussed. So, you jump in and follow the conversation to what’s going on.

I picked this thread partly because the topic interests me. However, it didn’t go un-noticed that the view vs. post ratio was high, somewhere just under 30 – a number that indicates an obvious curiosity on the part of the readers. I’ve joined forums such as this since Al Gore and I invented the internet and as a casual interest developed some statistical norms. The average high v/p is 20, the average low is 5, and the norm would fall between 8 and 12. Now these benchmarks are based on my experiences on other forums and we could conclude that the benchmark are wrong. Nevertheless, you can see why I noticed what appears to be an anomaly with a ratio of v/p as high as 30 before my participation. Early this morning I noticed that this thread had a v/p ratio of around 45 or 1.5 times higher than when I started participating. I’ve never experienced this before. I can’t explain it as being a result of my insightful or my great and wondrous rhetoric; simply because I’m not insightful, nor great, nor wondrous.

Ok, so what’s going on? Let me in on the joke; I love a good joke even if I’m the butt of it. Or, have I stepped on somebody’s sensibilities?

What do these numbers mean, if anything?

JoeT

Hi Joe,

Just a pure gut feeling guess that of all the Forum options available I’d be willing to bet a coffee that the least acccessed is Philosophy. I’ve only mailed a few times on it myself.

Your post tend toward the profound in an obviously PROFOUND MANNER

Now I suspect profound is welcome here if it’s not quite so obvious? Then again, its just a guess.

The mix of interest and intellects on this Forum is quite amazing. So I would just do what you do so well, and let those who are interested respond, and the others do there own thing too.

I never look at the stats of what i post. It’d be tooooo scary

Love and prayers friend Joe,
Pt

 

[JoeT777]

Hi Joe, Just a pure gut feeling guess that of all the Forum options available I’d be willing to bet a coffee that the least accessed is Philosophy. I’ve only mailed a few times on it myself.

Them ain’t philosophers – they don’t even know what time it is. – see Time - for an IQ Test That’ll cost you one cup of Coffee!

Your post tend toward the profound in an obviously PROFOUND MANNER Now I suspect profound is welcome here if it’s not quite so obvious? Then again, it’s just a guess.

The mix of interest and intellects on this Forum is quite amazing. So I would just do what you do so well, and let those who are interested respond, and the others do there own thing too.

I never look at the stats of what i post. It’d be tooooo scary

Love and prayers friend Joe,

Pt

I appreciate the compliment, and if it wasn’t meant as one, well it’s too late to take it back. All kidding aside, you need to keep in mind that folksiness can sometimes be confused as being philosophic. I just enjoy the various topics. The thing with numbers and statistics is just something I do; it’s a hard wired sort of thing - might as well have fun with it when you can. I’ve visited this board for some time as a visitor and have come to rely on it for information; I’ve just never posted in any of the forums before now.

JoeT

 

[JoeT777]

Vs 7: **The voice of the Lord divides the flame of fire: **

Reading on the surface, this verse could simply be construed that God’s voice is so wonders, so strong, that it knocks down great cedars into kindling, and ‘parts’ the trees, like one parts a few strands of hair. This shallowness would be a mistake.

St. Augustine says that this is the “voice of the Lord, without any harm to Himself, passing through all the excited ardour of them that persecute Him [Christ].”

In scriptures ‘fire’ is many times used to dispense the punishment of justice. The Southern Baptists are big on ‘Brimstone and Fire.’ Unless you repent NOW, well, it’s all brimstone and fire. In my younger days, I’d visited a Southern Baptist Church or two usually on Wednesday go to meeting night (actually socializing with the other kids was on my mind – did I ever get a case culture shock. The preacher was on a methamphetamine-like high of ‘brimstone and fire,’ and being Catholic – well, use your imagination.) Then there is another sense where “fire symbolizes the transforming energy of the Holy Spirit’s actions.” (CCC 696). Now what I want to think is that that the Catechism was written in Greek and I do like the protesters and argue over the Greek word for symbolizes’. But, I don’t think orthodoxy would be harmed if I suggested that this had a deeper spiritual mystery to it.

Expanding on David’s Psalm, St. Basil suggests that the properties of the ‘fire’ are also two fold, one punitive the other illuminating and protective:

'The voice of the Lord divides the flame of fire. 'says that this miracle happened to the Three Children in the fiery furnace. The fire in this case was divided into two, so that while it was burning those outside it, it was cooling the Children, as if they were under the shadow of a tree. In what follows he observes that the fire which had been prepared by God for the devil and his angels ‘is cut by the voice of the Lord.’ Fire has two properties, the caustic and illuminating energies, and that is why it burns and sheds light. Thus those worthy of the fire will feel its caustic quality and those worthy of the lighting will feel the illuminating property of the fire. Therefore he finishes very expressively: ‘the voice of the Lord divides the flames of fire’ and in the dividing, the fire of hell is without light, and the light of peace remains unburnt. (St Basil the Great, On Psalm 28)​

Poet Commodianus writes, “In the flame of fire the Lord will judge the wicked. But the fire shall not touch the just, but shall by all means lick them up.”
These too, seem to support the theory that the fire referred to in vs. 7 has two properties (you might say ‘two natures’ like Christ is one Person in the Trinity having two natures?). I feel quite safe putting these two mystical ‘fires’ together, as it were, a bifurcated fire of Divine Justice, punishment for the fool, and salvation for the faithful. “Every word of God is fire tried: he is a buckler to them that hope in him.” (Proverbs 30) And what is the Divine Mystery? “He that makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire.” (Hebrews 1:7).

Can we not conclude that God would do less for the Loaves in Moses Tabernacle than those Twelve that stood before Christ? Would such men ‘need’ baptism?

JoeT

 

[JoeT777]

Vs. 8 and 9: *The Voice of the Lord moving the wilderness. The Voice of the Lord perfecting the stags. *

St. Augustine suggests that this verse is moving the Gentile toward the voice of God. To abide in God or live with God we live in the promised dwellings of the Kingdom of God with Abraham’s co-heirs, i.e. Judaism. Outside of this is the wilderness. (Cf. Heb 11:9-10). *“That you were at that time without Christ, being aliens from the conversation of Israel and strangers to the testament,” *(Eph 2:12) God’s voice in the wilderness can be likened to him moving faith, not a dead faith but a faith that lacks enlightening, an unproductive faith; a faith lacking the same things lacking in the wilderness such as cultivation, education and organization – liken it to the systematically way settlers moved this country from wilderness to civilization. We can now render the meaning of this verse to be God’s vice moving faith from the position of wilderness to a more productive state likened to a significant faith, a meaningful faith that produces fruit. God’s voice interjects a fiery zeal and a fiery punishment much like the school master disciplines with the rod to benefit the future scholar’s love of wisdom and knowledge.

For the Voice of the Lord has first perfected them that overcame and repelled the envenomed tongues. And will reveal the woods. And then will He reveal to them the darkness of the Divine books, and the shadowy depths of the mysteries, where they feed with freedom. And in His temple does every man speak of His glory. And in His Church all born again to an eternal hope praise God, each for His own gift, which He has received from the Holy Spirit.

This is David’s Psalm for consummated the new Temple, this too is the call of John the Baptist, the voice in the wilderness. Is this the voice moving in the wilderness? The “voice of one crying in the wilderness” John’s voice would be a less than God’s voice; much more than the tocsin’s augural clatter, His voice affects more than the sirens warning to preparing the land for planting of faith, of Church, of the Kingdom of God. So, again we can relate this Psalm to John’s baptism of Christ Who plants the Flag of Hope, the foundation of Church to feed the spiritual wilderness in Judaism, and ultimately the world.

Vs. 10 & 11: *The Lord makes the flood to dwell: and the Lord shall sit king forever. The Lord will give strength to his people: the Lord will bless his people with peace. *

The fruitful soil of Rome, when it receives the pure seed of the Lord, bears fruit an hundredfold…My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails.” Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15:1-2 (A.D. 375).

Now we’re given a different vision, one of a deluge on which the Lord makes his dwelling. Any coincidence to the metaphor of Noah’s flood, the deluge were souls were lost below it waters, and reborn again in Christ’s baptism. St. Augustine echoes St. Jerome, “For the Lord will give strength to His people fighting against the storms and whirlwinds of this world, for peace in this world He has not promised them. John 16:33 The Lord will bless His people in peace. And the same Lord will bless His people, affording them peace in Himself; for, says He, My peace I give unto you, My peace I leave with you.” John 14:27. St. Augustine, Expositions on the Psalms

Consequently we can visualize the prophetic announcement of God’s plan for His Kingdom and relating to that His Kingdom. One where the plans were drawn millennia before in Moses tabernacle, the Divine plan for mankind drawn-out in goat skins, wood tables, stone altars and bread of proposition. This is the prefigured bread that resides with God, bread more fulfilling than the manna from heaven, bread that saves. This bread was the Twelve that were in the Presence of God, who in turn fed the world the Gospel, the Knowledge of God. This food that reasons rightly in faith, nourished with hope, charitably followed with the meat of the perfect sacrificial Lamb. The Presence Bread in the Tabernacle of Moses was the bread of Knowledge of Christ; unlike Moses’ Twelve Loaves, Christ’s were multiplied and will continue to be multiplied to the end of time.

JoeT

 

[JoeT777]

In summary,

The reason for The Twelve not to being baptized by Christ, but by John, was because they had already received a certain grace different from us. They were the living version of the “loaves of proposition” [Cf. “bread of the presence (of Yahweh)” (Exodus 35:13; 39:35, etc.) “holy bread” (1 Samuel 21:6), “bread of piles” (1 Chronicles 9:32; 23:29), “continual bread” (Numbers 4:7), or simply “bread” (Hebrew Version, Exodus 11:23)] Not Moses ‘manna from heaven, but a different type of food, you might say our first grace, knowledge of Christ, i.e. hope.

In Moses’ Tabernacle loaves of unleavened bread were placed on a table in front of the curtain in two stacks of 6 (12 loaves) in the presence of God. Now the blessed enjoy the sight of God. Christ’s loaves of unleavened men were placed in the presence of God; given the knowledge Christ’s Kingdom for our hope of salvation.

To the Jew in Abraham’s time, Moses’ time and the Jew in Christ’s time it’s a physical mark of a spiritual connection with God. It joined their manhood to God. (John 3:5) The only bread was the “proposition loaves.” The conflict with the 12 loaves should be obvious, bread is bread and meat is meat. Aaron and his priests (only those spiritually clean – presumably through the spiritual purification Mikvah) eat the loaves which made them spiritually pure to teach God’s Law, God’s Word. Likewise, the twelve Apostles were the loaves “in the presence of God,” exposed to the Logos. Holding the bread Christ said “this is my body,” the twelve holy loves were present – facing God, “face bread.”

“The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord’s throne is in heaven.” But the residence God on earth is in Moses’ Tabernacle.

Bring to the Lord, O you children of God: bring to the Lord the offspring of rams. The voice of the Lord is upon the waters; the God of majesty has thundered, The Lord is upon many waters. The voice of the Lord is in power; the voice of the Lord in magnificence. The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars: yea, the Lord shall break the cedars of Libanus.

The fire that bakes these men into a homogeneous body is a very word issued from the mouth of Christ. Both the purifying fire of the smelter
Fire has two properties, the caustic and illuminating energies, and that is why it burns and sheds light. Thus those worthy of the fire will feel its caustic quality and those worthy of the lighting will feel the illuminating property of the fire. A hope “much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire” (Cf. 1Peter 1:7) A hope founded in Christ tested in the Smithy’s fire, shaping refining the metal of men. The fire that consumes the impurities leaving only the precious.

Every man’s work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. 1 Cor. 3:13-15

These weren’t common men; rather the uncommon or unleavened. They resided in the Temple in the presence of God. “Every word of God is fire tried: he is a buckler to them that hope in him. Proverbs 30

The voice of the Lord divides the flame of fire. The Bread of Life offers us twelve men who will teach us Hope, God’s hope.

The Voice of the Lord moving the wilderness. The Voice of the Lord perfecting the stags. To abide in God we live in the promised dwellings of the Kingdom of God with Abraham’s co-heirs, i.e. Judaism. (John 16:33) The Lord will bless His people in peace. (John 14:27). This bread was the Twelve that were in the Presence of God, who in turn fed the world the Gospel, the Knowledge of God. The Presence Bread in the Tabernacle of Moses was the bread of Knowledge of Christ; unlike Moses’ Twelve Loaves, Christ’s were multiplied and will continue to be multiplied to the end of time.

JoeT