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TCEL
Guest
If adoption is problematic, perhaps you may be called to try and better those circumstances, one that doesn’t mean inflicting violence on an innocent life? I don’t know what your specific concerns are, so I can’t address them specifically. The adoption system isn’t like the foster-care system. If you want to know ways we think we can work together, you have our ears; and we have yours! Just be aware we don’t see abortion as a solution.
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sadiebelle
Guest
For the record, I have not mentioned if I identify as pro choice or pro life or just unsure. I don’t know why people need to know about me personally to answer questions. The most important thing to know is that I am honestly seeking others’ answers and viewpoints. I never aim to be unkind or combative.
I am familiar with the adoption system. I doubt you would be able to find an anti-adoption person who is not familiar with it.
I am frustrated by a lack of empathy I see from people who identify as pro-life. (Saying that doesn’t mean that I am not frustrated with things that pro-choice people do.) I started this thread to explore that. I was looking for ways in which people here were working to specifically reduce the life events that women see as reasons for abortions, and what they thought those reasons were. It is something that I am thinking about and wanted others’ (name removed by moderator)ut.
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TCEL
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I do not think you are being unkind. I thought, from some of the other posts, that you were also seeking ways we can work together? You said you weren’t comfortable with adoption, so I was wondering specifically what puts you off of it. Exploring that is something we can do to better help women, as well as children and parents who are involved in the process, no? It’s not a trick question. The Church has many ministries dedicated to helping people in need, and her teachings regarding chastity, if followed, help safeguard against the situation of unplanned pregnancies. If we’re truly to work together, I’d like to hear what you specifically think we can do to better show empathy to women who need help, while in your turn understanding we don’t condone abortion.
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lutheran_farmer
Guest
My impression is that the Catholic Church is the most empathetic organization you will ever find. The politics of this issue have made it far too impersonal, in my opinion. The right wing politicians, mostly male, will give their opinions to a cheering crowd. The left wing politicians do the same. The feminists will tell you it’s your right and militantly defend that right until you walk through the door of that clinic. Then, it’s just you, a second rate doctor (most often) and your own reeling mind to deal with the after effects. The Church is the only one that will take you back in and help you heal spiritually. What a beautiful demonstration of Christian love and forgiveness.
rachelsvineyard.org/
I do not know anyone that has gone through the program personally, but I find it extremely refreshing to see that it’s available. For all those coerced, abused and manipulated souls, there is hope. For those that go in with the hardest of hearts or the direst circumstances, the Church will pick them back up, brush them off, and tell them they are loved despite everything.
rachelsvineyard.org/
I do not know anyone that has gone through the program personally, but I find it extremely refreshing to see that it’s available. For all those coerced, abused and manipulated souls, there is hope. For those that go in with the hardest of hearts or the direst circumstances, the Church will pick them back up, brush them off, and tell them they are loved despite everything.
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sadiebelle
Guest
I’m afraid that talking about adoption takes us off topic a bit. Or maybe that it might just deserve its own thread. I think that it is wrong to separate a mother and child unless there are very serious circumstances.
What I think is that we need to support motherhood. I didn’t come here to preach what I believe, though. I’m much more interested in what you specifically are doing to stop abortion.
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TCEL
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Thanks! I think I’ve already said my bit about what I’m doing.
Unfortunately, we can’t bi-locate and do everything all at the same time. That’s why I’m so thankful there are other dedicated men and women who spend their lives in various areas of ministry! Together, we make a whole. (Perhaps a bit of a beleaguered whole, sometimes.) I just want to say that I do agree with you on the point that many pro-lifers come across as un-empathetic. Sometimes, I think they haven’t thought through the situation. Some are downright troubled. That being said, I know there are many men and women who have the biggest hearts, and fight for the women who find themselves in these situations. I saw a stat the other day that over half of funds given to pro-life causes usually go straight to material support. Post-abortion ministry is also quite active. And while its certainly not popular, we continue to promote the message of chastity (that “c-word”) and natural fertility awareness.
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lutheran_farmer
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I’m afraid the basic answer is that the Church works constantly to counteract all the forces that put women in these situations in the first place.
-She tells them to hold out when they are young and the hormones are raging.
-She tells them to not settle for living together instead of a sacramental marriage.
-She begs them to consider other options when they are pregnant, alone and afraid.
-She wipes their tears when they go through with the abortion anyway.
The Church is there, but we all have free will to stay away if we choose. Please don’t let the politics drown out God.
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ishii
Guest
With all due respect, I have been discussing/arguing/debating with pro-choice folks for decades. Over the years I’ve come to be able to identify certain arguments of the pro-choice crowd. One of them is this: “we need to see why women have an abortion and address those issues.” What that means is: “*we need to forget about passing laws protecting the unborn and keep abortion legal, but give more assistance to single mothers, and hand out condoms in high schools.” * And we all know which party best fits that description: the Democrats!
Mind you, I am not necessarily lumping you in this group. But if you identified as pro-life, and admitted that you will not support any politician who isn’t pro-life, and then posed your question, I think you’d get better answers. You say that the pro-life movement lacks empathy. Well, compare the abortion providers and the pro-life advocates: the abortion providers help the mother have the abortion, then its over. I don’t know of any after care, post-abortion care at all, do you? (after all, abortion is safe, right?). On the other hand, those in the pro-life movement make a great effort to address the needs of the woman in the crisis pregnancy by offering counseling, and help. Also, the pro-life movement actually helps women deal with the after effects of abortion - the guilt, psychological issues, health issues, etc. They are not judgmental at all but instead encourage healing - through Rachel’s Vineyard, etc. Remember also that there is not one person but two people to consider on this issue - the mother and her child. Certainly the child’s needs are worthy of concern too?
Actually, the difference in attitudes toward adoption as an alternative to abortion are very illustrative. Pro-choice folks tend to downplay adoption as a legitimate alternative.
Would you not agree that facing an abortion as your only alternative would be one of those “serious circumstances” you speak of? If a mother thinks that aborting her child is a legitimate option then maybe it is better that the child and mother be separated? Maybe its better for the child’s health to live with an adoptive mother who will not consider killing it?
Ishii
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TCEL
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Of note, here is Abby Johnson’s plan for how to help reduce the situations in which abortions arises. She envisions transforming pregnancy-clinics into full-blown medical facilities which help low-income women for free. (Our services at our clinic are free, too.) Of course, the biggest obstacle is funding.
Abby Johnson: Only Modern Pro-Life Women’s Centers Can Beat Planned Parenthood
Abby Johnson: Only Modern Pro-Life Women’s Centers Can Beat Planned Parenthood
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hylandgl
Guest
It’s not important why a woman wants an abortion. It’s that she wants one that’s the problem.
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nmgauss
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When I was a teenager from 1948 thru 1955, in my high school, out-of-wedlock pregnancies were a rarity. Having sex before marriage was strongly discouraged. Today, it is the norm. When I was in naval officer training, getting laid was a big deal among my companions. They were 18-22 years old and virgins and wanting to get laid for the first time. Today, that would be ludicrous. I was in my 30’s when I got married, and that was my first sexual encounter. Today, a person like that would be regarded as a freak.
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hylandgl
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Thank you for saying this. It would be wonderful if people learned the value of abstinence before marriage once again. It certainly is not impossible.
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TCEL
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I agree with your latter statement. I would add that part of addressing a problem is trying to understand why people see it as a solution (even though it’s not). The least we can do is try to help women, many of whom have grown up in a culture that says abortion is the answer, realize it doesn’t have to be. It’s an uphill battle from the get-go. It is important to understand why in order to better answer this epidemic of broken lives and lost lives. That doesn’t mean compromising our convictions; it’s more like being well-prepared soldiers and doctors. And, we have to realize that some women truly are in duress. Wild pregnancy-hormones don’t always help women think clearly. Sorry, just a biological fact I’m experiencing right now.
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DeaconPaulY
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I pray that your idea of comprehensive sex education includes Blessed John Paul II’s Theology of the Body and the safety, beauty, and holiness of abstinence.
To reclaim our dignity as children of God focused on heaven, holy in His eyes, we have to help our children understand that there is no human right to sex. (I understand that first we have to convince adults that there is no human right to sex.) But we are going to have to really make our children understand this if we are going to turn this world around with regard to this area of morality. People can live completely fulfilled lives without ever having sex. Virgins are crowned in heaven and set as an example of best living. Millions of people: priests, religious, and laity alike have proven the statement to be true. sex is a gift from God to a validly married couple for the procreation of children and the good of the marriage. God has not offered this gift to anyone else, regardless of what popular culture wants to believe.
Peace and Blessings, Deacon Paul
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nmgauss
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We have a culture that urges indulgence. TV commercials parade junk food, sex enhancers, and beer. Young people at parties are urged to get drunk, get laid, get high, etc. Couples live together (“shack up” was the expression in my day) and have children without any commitment. Is it a wonder that we have so many young people in trouble? Most of my mother’s ten siblings and father’s three siblings got married when young, had small families and stayed married. My parents did the same. How quaint!
When I was young, I found that alcohol made me depressed and upset my stomach. Smoking had no appeal to me. I was career oriented and had no desire to have my plans disrupted by getting involved romantically with a woman. When in college, I was poor and had no excess funds for dating. I was asked by my friends why I did not indulge. They asked why I had no vices. Having vices was supposed to make me one of the crowd.
Having now lived for almost eighty years, I have been married twice without getting any woman pregnant. I have a lovely career-oriented step-daughter who had two abortions when she was young. She is healthy and doing well in her life. If she had decided to give birth out-of-wedlock, I think her life would have been significantly degraded.
The number one concern should be the quality of each person’s life without feeling guilty that a potential life was artificially terminated. Miscarriages occur all the time naturally. Does anyone fret about the lost life? Either the pregnancy is terminated early by natural means because of the body’s intolerance of the pregnancy or because the mother is not ready to become a mother. In both cases, an unwanted birth is nipped in the bud. What difference does it make whether it happens automatically or is a conscious effort?
Many immature teenagers (babies) are having babies. Babies having babies: how ludicrous! 11- and 12-year olds are becoming pregnant. Why can’t they terminate the birth?
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TCEL
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I’m going by your religious affiliation. I don’t know if you mean non-denominational Christian or not, so please forgive me if that’s not what you mean.
Jesus wasn’t a potential life in Mary’s womb. She also would have been a perfect example of why women seek abortions. She risked death. I know you don’t think it would have been ok in her case.
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DeaconPaulY
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your argument quotes chapter and verse out of the culture of death manual. you speak of potential life rather than life so that you don’t have to acknowledge the fact that abortion is murder. “nipping pregnancy in the bud” is an unusual phrase for murdering a child. Pro-abortion people never speak about the rights of the child – it’s all about the mother. Miscarriages are things that God allows to happen – it has nothing to do with nature. Abortion is killing that the mother chooses to do. There is an infinite difference. Quality of life has nothing to do with it. The will of God in our lives is the only thing that counts. Abortion for the sake of convenience is absolutely the most selfish thing a woman can do. I disagree with you that your stepdaughter’s life would have been degraded by having two children. her life would certainly have been different but trading the lives of two children for a career is a bad choice. your stepdaughter should have practiced abstinence if she didn’t want children. the answer is to live as God has commanded us to live, which means teaching our children that abstinence before marriage is the ONLY way to live in God’s plan for our lives. Having sex is not a human right. It is a gift from God given to married couples for the procreation of children and the good of the marriage. By the way, every woman I have counselled after a miscarriage has grieved just like you would expect her to grieve if a child died and I have counselled many. You may not agree with me but God will explain it to both you and your stepdaughter when the time comes.
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nmgauss
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I am a secular humanist. I have a great interest in life on earth and regard humanity as just one example of the several types of primates on earth. The natural behavior of primates should be used as a template for the natural behavior of humans. God’s will as applied exclusively to humans is myopic and ignores the rest of earth’s creatures. Anthropologists study humans in light of the entire pattern of living primates as well as fossil evidence. What is revealed departs considerably from the wishful thinking we are taught is God’s plan.
For example, archeologists have studied the remains of humans in Galilee that lived during the time of Jesus and found that malnutrition and disease were rampant. They also found that 50% of children died before the age of five. How can this be God’s plan?
Biologist have found that infanticide exists in animal societies. It also exists in certain human societies where deformed or sick newborns are considered not worth keeping alive. Why should childbirth result in the death of the mother? Is this God’s plan? If a pregnant woman is found to be unable to give birth without dying, why not terminate the pregnancy rather than allowing the woman to die? Whose life is more valuable? A fetus is part of a woman’s body. If you cut off a part of the body for medical reasons, that is OK. So why not eliminate an unwanted or diseased fetus? A fetus is indeed a potential life because it is still part of the mother’s body.
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TCEL
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Clearly, my argument won’t appeal to you if you aren’t Christian, which is why I made the clarifying remark.
Typically in a forum such as this, non-denominational is more likely to be associated with Christianity. There’s an option to write in your own religion or philosophy. Secular humanism, I think, is a much more accurate description. 
I would love to address some of your good points, but I might derail the thread; since the OP wanted to know more specifically ways in which we are trying to address abortion and help women who find themselves in these situations. It might be a good question to ask under the philosophy forum, though!- Status