Why would you not believe in the Communion of Saints?

[stbruderklaus]

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought I understood that the primary reason for canonization in the Roman communion, is to carefully substantiate two key things:

– That the person in question bears all the marks that scrutiny can reveal, regarding their having been in a state of grace, and thus reasonably assumed to be in the presence of God in heaven.

– That the person is a reliable model of the Christian faith, to which the catholic faithful may refer and attempt to emulate.

I don’t think the doctrine regarding the knowledge of the saints is rooted in the canonization process… of course, I could be wrong.

Cheers,
Brad

 

[JLSamuel818]

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought I understood that the primary reason for canonization in the Roman communion, is to carefully substantiate two key things:

– That the person in question bears all the marks that scrutiny can reveal, regarding their having been in a state of grace, and thus reasonably assumed to be in the presence of God in heaven.

– That the person is a reliable model of the Christian faith, to which the catholic faithful may refer and attempt to emulate.

I don’t think the doctrine regarding the knowledge of the saints is rooted in the canonization process… of course, I could be wrong.

Cheers,
Brad

Hm… I’ll do some research about it.

 

[ralphinal]

As A Lutheran, I’d say perhaps we don’t, but certainly God hears the calls for intercession from the countless millions of Catholics and Orthodox who ask for saintly intercession. I suspect He understands them.

Jon

This is a good place to start. Any powers that the Saints have to assist us are theirs because of God. God can grant the ability to hear us, pray for us, or help us to whomever he so chooses, living or dead.

Now, can we say that we know the mechanism for it? No. It may be connected to the fact that heaven is outside of our time. Millions calling at once may be the same as one person calling at a time. Or, God may allow them limited omnision. I do not know.

We know that in scripture, those who are dead in Christ are both alive, aware, and in a state of prayer.

 

[JonNC]

This is a good place to start. Any powers that the Saints have to assist us are theirs because of God. God can grant the ability to hear us, pray for us, or help us to whomever he so chooses, living or dead.

Now, can we say that we know the mechanism for it? No. It may be connected to the fact that heaven is outside of our time. Millions calling at once may be the same as one person calling at a time. Or, God may allow them limited omnision. I do not know.

We know that in scripture, those who are dead in Christ are both alive, aware, and in a state of prayer.

I think this last line would not be in dispute with Lutherans, at least from my understanding. Regarding the first 2 paragraphs, what the confessions say is that, as you state above, we don’t know. Also, scripture is unclear. But as it doesn’t appear to conflict with scripture, I find it impossible to condemn a practice and belief that spans the centuries and both east and west.

While my beliefs have, admittedly, evolved some, I still have concerns about binding the Christian’s conscience and requiring belief in intercession. In either direction.

Jon

 

[ralphinal]

I think this last line would not be in dispute with Lutherans, at least from my understanding. Regarding the first 2 paragraphs, what the confessions say is that, as you state above, we don’t know. Also, scripture is unclear. But as it doesn’t appear to conflict with scripture, I find it impossible to condemn a practice and belief that spans the centuries and both east and west.

While my beliefs have, admittedly, evolved some, I still have concerns about binding the Christian’s conscience and requiring belief in intercession. In either direction.

Jon

THe interesting thing is that Catholics are not required to ask a saint’s intercession outside of the few times it is done during mass.

 

[JonNC]

THe interesting thing is that Catholics are not required to ask a saint’s intercession outside of the few times it is done during mass.

True, I understand this. Isn’t it also true, though, that Catholics are bound to believe that saints can be called on? In other words, can a Catholic take the view that the Church Triumphant only prays in a general sense, and does not hear our prayers for intercession?

Jon

 

[ralphinal]

True, I understand this. Isn’t it also true, though, that Catholics are bound to believe that saints can be called on? In other words, can a Catholic take the view that the Church Triumphant only prays in a general sense, and does not hear our prayers for intercession?

Jon

I would say that a Catholic must accept it, yes, but I am not 100% sure. I am only about 94%. I do think that if a Catholic understands the mechanism as being God hears the plea and through that, the saint involved is granted special abilty to pray for that intention, it would be acceptable, instead of the Saint hears and prays construct. That is only my opinion, though.

 

[JonNC]

I would say that a Catholic must accept it, yes, but I am not 100% sure. I am only about 94%. I do think that if a Catholic understands the mechanism as being God hears the plea and through that, the saint involved is granted special abilty to pray for that intention, it would be acceptable, instead of the Saint hears and prays construct. That is only my opinion, though.

Are you sure you’re not 94.5% sure?

It would be interesting to know if that mechanism were for sure acceptable.

Jon

 

[ralphinal]

Are you sure you’re not 94.5% sure?

It would be interesting to know if that mechanism were for sure acceptable.

Jon

I was thinking about this all afternoon. I am going to ask my preist about it Tuesday night, at our regular adoration. He may not have an answer, but I will see what I can find out.

 

[JLSamuel818]

I was thinking about this all afternoon. I am going to ask my preist about it Tuesday night, at our regular adoration. He may not have an answer, but I will see what I can find out.

I was reading all your posts in this thread.

I to feel a little confused. Do find out and post.

 

[stbruderklaus]

This might be worth a ruling from one of the apologists that work this site. I know there are dogmas that every Roman catholic is bound to believe by canon, and there are things left to conscience. The formal list changes from time to time, particularly as popes exercise their authority to define such things.

There’s a difference, though, between formal confession and practice. While every Roman is bound to believe and confess according to such statements of faith such as the Catechism, I don’t know how far a Roman is bound to perform certain things, such as praying to saints. Of course, this balance between authority and liberty has been a bit tenuous over the last 500 years… at least, from a non-Roman perspective.

Cheers.

 

[JonNC]

I was thinking about this all afternoon. I am going to ask my preist about it Tuesday night, at our regular adoration. He may not have an answer, but I will see what I can find out.

I’ll be waiting for his response. Really curious.
Thanks, Ralph,
Jon

 

[ralphinal]

I’ll be waiting for his response. Really curious.
Thanks, Ralph,
Jon

I have some connections at EWTN, and I would try them, but they are generally slow to get back to me about things like this. I’ll know more soon.

 

[ralphinal]

Sorry that it took so long to get information.

According to the priest at my parish, and he said that this is mostly his speculation because as far as he knows, there is no clear teaching on it, the mechanism where by the saints know what is going on is unimportant.

From the saints point of view, they are in heaven praising God. That is all important and all consuming to them. That does fit the Catholic understanding of heaven. Anyway, these saints are aware of the state of the rest of the Church and other humans, but it is unimportant how or why. IN fact, he did say that the concept that God lets the saint know that someone is asking for their intercession is a possibility.

He would not go so far as to speculate on if the act of invoking a saint would cause God to see the faith of the person and hear the prayer, for the sake of the saint. This would be almost like the woman who touched Jesus’s clothing.

He asked if the people wondering this were like me and wanted to know everything. If so, he said, we will have to wait for heaven.

 

[stbruderklaus]

Sounds like you have a pretty good priest, mate.

Cheers.

 

[ralphinal]

Sounds like you have a pretty good priest, mate.

Cheers.

He is a great one. You can always tell when someone is trying to be holy. He is. The great thing about him is that he is trying to get others to be holy too, only without beating them over the head with it.

 

[reteeks21]

Pretty straight forward question. Catholics believe in it, us Anglicans do as well and staunchly might I add. How can you not believe in the unbroken chain of Christ’s followers and faithful past, present and future? I am curious to hear from those who do not believe this way and would like to know what precisely they do believe in regards to what happens after this life.

I think you have to be crazy not to believe in it! Hello! Hebrews tells us about plainly!

 

[JonNC]

Sorry that it took so long to get information.

According to the priest at my parish, and he said that this is mostly his speculation because as far as he knows, there is no clear teaching on it, the mechanism where by the saints know what is going on is unimportant.

From the saints point of view, they are in heaven praising God. That is all important and all consuming to them. That does fit the Catholic understanding of heaven. Anyway, these saints are aware of the state of the rest of the Church and other humans, but it is unimportant how or why. IN fact, he did say that the concept that God lets the saint know that someone is asking for their intercession is a possibility.

He would not go so far as to speculate on if the act of invoking a saint would cause God to see the faith of the person and hear the prayer, for the sake of the saint. This would be almost like the woman who touched Jesus’s clothing.

He asked if the people wondering this were like me and wanted to know everything. If so, he said, we will have to wait for heaven.

Thanks, Ralph, for the effort, and thank your priest for me. Definitely foor for thought.

Jon