Wierd unrealistic passage in the Exodus

[Decimvs]

I was just reading Exodus and came by this weird passage. If God was proving a point through Moses, why and how did the Egyptian priests also perform miracles to counter Moses? This makes no sense.

7:10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.

Can someone please explain this to me. I believe in the bible and God, and Christ, but this makes the Exodus sound like a fairytale.

 

[Gregory_I]

It was either sleight of hand or real demonic magick. That magick is real, the making of pacts with demons is real.

If you keep reading, there comes a point when the magicians can no longer replicate what the Lord does through moses: It is significant and symbolic because Egypt had many gods of many things, and each miracle shows Gods superiority over the gods of Egypt.

 

[Decimvs]

But the Egyptians had their own religion, they weren’t making pacts with the devil. They were worshiping gods that don’t exist. That’s different. People have tried making pacts with the devil in more resent times, and people just don’t casually throw staffs on the ground and watch it turn to snakes.

I’m kind of embarrassed cause these are the parts of the bible that atheists get on my nerves about.

As for God’s superiority over the gods of Egypt? Again, how is that even relevant, if the gods of Egypt don’t even exist?

 

[William_Pitts]

What Moses and Aaron did was real. The real power was of course God. What the Egyptian sorcerers did was perform a “trick”. A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture has the following comment on verse 11:

“11b. ‘And they also, the Egyptian magicians cf.Gen_41:8) did in like manner with their enchantments.’ The fact that Aaron’s rod swallowed their rods had no effect on the hardened heart of Pharaoh. He is therefore punished by plagues and gradually forced to yield. The modern Egyptian magicians also turn rods into snakes. This is sometimes done by pressing a certain part of the neck of a real snake which thus becomes cramped into rigidity and stretched out like a rod, but when thrown to the ground, after the pressure is removed, resumes its natural form and movements. At other times rods are substituted for snakes by the performer when he has distracted the attention of the spectators from his movements. Jewish tradition gives the names of the magicians as Jannes and Jambres (2Ti_3:8).”

Remember this was during the plagues brought on Egypt to influence Pharaoh to allow the Children of Israel to leave.

Never doubt the Word of God. When you have the complete story, passages that appear to be “weird and unrealistic” make perfect sense.

God does what He chooses.

 

[GloriousOrder]

But the Egyptians had their own religion, they weren’t making pacts with the devil. They were worshiping gods that don’t exist. That’s different. People have tried making pacts with the devil in more resent times, and people just don’t casually throw staffs on the ground and watch it turn to snakes.

I’m kind of embarrassed cause these are the parts of the bible that atheists get on my nerves about.

As for God’s superiority over the gods of Egypt? Again, how is that even relevant, if the gods of Egypt don’t even exist?

Friend, your anxiety isn’t warranted at all! Just remember to pray to God for light, because “all scripture is God-breathed, and worthy for study”. First and foremost, you must pray to the Holy One for understanding of this passage. Don’t seek the knowledge and opinions of us sinners, sheesh!

Now, regarding your actual question: might you believe that the false gods of Egypt are, actually, demons? The power of Hell, when it comes to deceit, is very great. Why do you think so many people become Wiccan or neo-pagan these days? It’s for exactly the same reason that the Egyptians kept to their polytheism when confronted with Jewish monotheism: devils. Thoth, Horus, and all their thousands of fertility and crop companions are demonic figures meant to lead Egyptians from God. It is the same there as with any polytheistic religion today.

God allows Satan some leeway over the affairs of men (as in the story of Job). Satan has power, of course, being a fallen angel. Angels can do many things that we can’t even understand, and Satan retains his angelic ‘nature’ after his disobedient fall; that is, he is still ontologically an angel, and can do things angels can do. The only difference between Satan and loyal angels is that he uses his good powers for ill.

Don’t worry about the Egyptian snakes! They were allowed by God to see if Moses and Aaron would prevail in their faith, and to give the Egyptians an arrogant sense of superiority. The serpent of the Lord always consumes the demonic conjurations.

 

[Decimvs]

okay, so it was just a coincidence that the real miracle God had Moses perform, was the “trick” performed by the priests.

appreciate the explanation. I wasnt being rude or claiming I didn’t believe it, just wanted some explanation. Maybe I’m thinking to much of everyday life with science and logic involved. I’m one of those people who think science PROVES the bible, so this part kinda got me frozen.

Thanks everyone.

 

[nordskoven]

Well…I’m glad the story seems fantastic. Nobody was dumbing down the account, just giving the facts. And the fact is, one can dislocate a snake’s neck and make it stiff like a cane; and throwing it down with a snap of the wrist would allow re-adjusting the neck, leaving the snake in fighting fettle. The war with the magicians was between Moses, raised a prince of Egypt, his brother and sister; and the Egyptian bad guys. And Egypt had its share of bad guys who rewrote and obfuscated the monotheist heritage of Egypt. Egypt is promised to be reunited as part of the Messianic Jewish state. It is my belief that “reunited” is apt because I suggest God gave lands (that were formerly orthodox monotheist settlements taken over by the bad guys) back to the remnant monotheists, the Jews.

Moses was raised a prince in Egypt. That means access to the archives. And I think that’s where the Torah came from; maybe left there by Joseph. And he had tremendous skills, as did Aaron, who cobbled up that golden calf. It was Moses who reduced it to dust, a nice piece of metallurgy. One may note that Immanuel Velikovsky examined ancient texts from diverse cultures, many having parallel accounts including a rain of manna. And from these catastrophic accounts, Velikovsky put together ancient celestial mechanics. That allowed Velikovsky to posit a hot Venus which was, in the 1950’s, thought to be Earth-like. So, at minimum, the OT is accurate enough to give Velikovsky a leg-up on the scientists of his day. If that doesn’t encourage you in the faith, you could just write your own version as Thomas Jefferson did.

 

[Ed_Normile]

I always looked at this as the egyptians were worshipping false gods, these false gods gave them signs and performed tricks. These false gods had to be demons. Demons flourished in those times as well as they are at work in our times, and being open to demonic influence allows them into your life. Worshipping a god that is not true would open yourself to demon influence as surely as occult worship and a ouija board would. Moses’ snake ate the snake of the false god showing it superiority over it. They then lost a battle of signs as they could not keep up with the signs Moses performed. Despite all this they decided to deny Moses’ and God’s word and it came to a bad end for them.

ed

 

[patrick457]

It was either sleight of hand or real demonic magick. That magick is real, the making of pacts with demons is real.

If you keep reading, there comes a point when the magicians can no longer replicate what the Lord does through moses: It is significant and symbolic because Egypt had many gods of many things, and each miracle shows Gods superiority over the gods of Egypt.

Indeed.
My take on this: If we look at the Hebrew word used here, we’ll find that the magicians were able to replicate it through b’lahatehem (from the plural of lut ‘to enwrap’). This word is actually a hapax legomenon, a word that only appears once in the OT. It need not necessarily refer to nonhuman “powers” (the Greek renders it as pharmakeiais, literally ‘drugging’ but also ‘sorcery’; other Jewish sources understand it as ‘dazzling display’ or ‘demons’) but could also imply trickery or sleight-of-hand.

 

[Warrenton]

Don’t underestimate the ancient Egyptians. We could not build the great pyramids today if we wanted to within the time they did.

Our society won’t last a fraction of the length theirs did, either. Our society is just gone 200 years old, and we are already destroying ourselves.

A prediction: In 4000 years, there won’t be anything recognizable of New York City from today, except perhaps St. Patrick’s and St. John the Divine Cathedrals (God willing) and a few bits of broken concrete.

The accomplishments of Egypt stupefied the world for millenia. The wreckage of that nation remains greater than the accomplishments of much of the modern world. Imagine what is looked like in its high summer, when Moses was there.

 

[Decimvs]

yea the work of all the slaves who built the temple was amazing, but whats that have anything to do with egyptian priests, who worshiped false gods, having “powers”

 

[Warrenton]

It is as accurate to say the slaves “built” the pyramids (if indeed they were slaves) as it is to say that cranes built the Empire State Building.

If anything, they were the motive power, not the guiding minds.

It is better to accept the story on its own terms than to attempt to read it with 21st Century assumptions.

Today, no one can turn a staff into a snake.

Today, no one can build a great pyramid, even with slaves.

In Egypt, things were different. Politically, they acheived a stability that is so unique in human history as to be almost a miracle in itself. Astonishing, given its multiracial nature.

Your atheist friends cannot accept the story because they cannot fathom Egypt. That they cannot fathom Egypt is a product of their ignorance, not of any inherent implausibility of the narrative. If they were not still there, your atheist friends would disbelieve that the pyramids have ever been built. It is the nature of ignorance.

 

[Decimvs]

It is as accurate to say the slaves “built” the pyramids (if indeed they were slaves) as it is to say that cranes built the Empire State Building.

If anything, they were the motive power, not the guiding minds.

It is better to accept the story on its own terms than to attempt to read it with 21st Century assumptions.

Today, no one can turn a staff into a snake.

Today, no one can build a great pyramid, even with slaves.

In Egypt, things were different. Politically, they acheived a stability that is so unique in human history as to be almost a miracle in itself. Astonishing, given its multiracial nature.

Your atheist friends cannot accept the story because they cannot fathom Egypt. That they cannot fathom Egypt is a product of their ignorance, not of any inherent implausibility of the narrative. If they were not still there, your atheist friends would disbelieve that the pyramids have ever been built. It is the nature of ignorance.

but you gotto stop sometime and admit, the old testament has alot of cinderella-like fairy tales, should i blindly believe everything?

 

[patrick457]

It is as accurate to say the slaves “built” the pyramids (if indeed they were slaves) as it is to say that cranes built the Empire State Building.

Come to think of it, excavated skeletons show that the workers were not foreigners nor slaves, but Egyptian freedmen who lived in . And even then, it seemed that they were taken care of rather well: the builders’ villages boasted bakers, butchers, brewers, granaries, houses, cemeteries, and probably even some sorts of health-care facilities, as there is evidence of laborers surviving crushed or amputated limbs.

 

[William_Pitts]

but you gotto stop sometime and admit, the old testament has alot of cinderella-like fairy tales, should i blindly believe everything?

When you get down to it, people don’t believe the Bible because they choose not to believe. I really don’t find any “fairy tales” in the old testament. A little study and things become clear.

 

[nordskoven]

Look, Decimvs, you’re in a mindset that is self-destructive. Back-engineer. The “fairy tales” of old will show one thing: the orthodox monotheists had high-tech revelation from God. The specs of Noah’s Ark alone are stunning, especially coupled with extra-biblical info. In fact, that’s where western science came from: modern orthodox monotheists back-engineering the creation of a cogent Creator. You’re the one in fairy tale mode. The “fairy tale” Eucharist is so demonstrative of grand physics that it is we who are catching up. I’ll give another example to await our “catching up.”

Like the movie “Contact,” earthlings invade Heaven, as the Old Testament says, and which is reiterated in 2 Thessalonians. And because they didn’t come in by the proper gate, Messiah’s passage, the Archangel Michael toasts them with the breath of his mouth by God’s divine power. That’s so appropriate. There is the profane and the sacred. These profane people–possibly scientists who may harness something like worm hole technology–invade Heaven, a real place in the cosmos. And they are incinerated. Wait for it.

It must be the Holy Spirit who has led all these souls over the eons to embrace again and again truth that is fabulous while being no fable. What a delight to so trust in the Lord. How spoiled we are to have, for example, the account of a Japanese fisherman who was stuck in the gob of a whale and survived like Jonah. He was deathly white and wrinkly and one can’t help but think of the effect Jonah had when urging the pagans to repent, because they sure did.

Your stubborn insistence means you expect God’s ways to be your ways and they are not. You have to admit this isn’t small stuff any more than the Church’s claim to be founded by Christ is small stuff. That’s the grandness of God. Pardon me for humbly sticking to it, and for noting that among atheists it is generally personal sin that is the fundament for rejecting God. This pop culture mis-characterization of Christians as dumb and credulous is the “mockery of the latter days.” Nothing to back it up. I’ll suffer the disdain, thank you. That’s the nature of hope: God’s history of 100% veracity; which inspires stepping out in faith; all in loving charity for God. Fall in love. Maybe He will open your mind.

Questioning is great. I have a reason for the faith I hold. You’re creeping inference that all those goofy stories are not worthy of belief is doubt, and that’s demonic. Don’t doubt. Question. So if you’d care to be specific, I’d be happy to give my viewpoint, noting that God’s ways are not our ways and I can only hope to grasp His “big picture.”
Lord, enlighten the “eyes of our heart.” AMEN
P.S. The heart does have “eyes” in that the gland beside the heart, the thymus, is intimately connected with second sight.

 

[Warrenton]

but you gotto stop sometime and admit, the old testament has alot of cinderella-like fairy tales, should i blindly believe everything?/QUOT

There is a middle ground to consider. LP Hartley wrote that “the past is another country, they do things differently there.”

What we think of as reality is a function of social conditioning as much as reason. Notice how this plays out in every day life. The presidents say that the government must run a deficit because they cannot envision othewise. Hence, nothing is done about the deficit and it grows to a size that is impossible to repay. A long history of balanced budgets is ignored.

If our society collapses and reverts to the level of say, 1940 (a mere 70 year backslide), who would believe several centuries hence that space travel occurred?