Wife out of line? regarding fear & contraception?

[marietta]

marietta - thank you, but you misunderstand. I’m not trying to force my wife to have a child.
I accept that we will very, very likely not have children. What this is about is her use of artificial, abortifiscient contraception which could lead to any egg of hers that gets fertilized being aborted from the womb. That’s what needs to be avoided, I believe, and gets in the way of our having a proper and healthy and appropriately intimate marriage.

First of all, can you please explain your phrase, “aborted from the womb”? Do you mean failure to implant?

If your wife agrees to the condition that no artificial birth control must be used in your marriage, *and she is adamant about not *conceiving under any circumstances, then your only option is mutual continuous abstinence until she is finished with menopause.

That does not sound like a proper and healthy and appropriately intimate marriage to me.

Unplanned pregnancy is anything but a “low-chance ‘lottery’ type occurance” - haven’t you read any of the stats on this forum with regard to the number of abortions performed every second of every day? And while it is true that “God is in control and we are not”, we do have free will which can be used with wisdom enough to avoid an unplanned pregnancy. At your wife’s age, and with menopause looming, her cycles may be starting to become irregular enough that NFP would be ineffective.

You are asking her to forgo self-protection so that you can enter into the marital embrace without sinning. How is it that her use of a contraceptive device becomes your “sin”? Wouldn’t she be individually accountable to God for this “sin”? Or does the Catholic Church also attach the sin to the husband, just as a “guilt by association” infraction?

Would you be guilty of this “sin” if she had not told you she had an IUD inserted?

marietta

 

[emeraldcoast]

emeraldcoast - your questions are valid, but I don’t know if you realize the choices here. Marriage, though important, is not more important that life, or salvation.

I am sure that you also believe that the life of the woman that you married and vow you both made to each other before God is very important. If your church forces you to choose between risking her life by having marital relations or not fully fulfilling your vow to love and honor her by abstaining…I would be running away from this church quickly! I don’t think either of you envisioned vows of celebacy.

God Bless!

 

[kage_ar]

At your wife’s age, and with menopause looming, her cycles may be starting to become irregular enough that NFP would be ineffective.

NFP is NOT the “rythmn method”, it has nothing to do with regularity of cycles. It is about monitoring the signals our bodies give us to fertility. It is biology 101.

Please bother to learn about NFP before making such statements.

 

[marietta]

kage_ar:

*"There are three main types of NFP: the symptoms-based methods, the calendar-based methods, and the lactational amenorrhea method. Symptoms-based methods rely on biological signs of fertility, while calendar-based methods estimate the likelihood of fertility based on the length of past menstrual cycles.

"Calendar-based methods determine fertility based on a record of the length of previous menstrual cycles. They include the Rhythm Method and the Standard Days Method." * ~ Wikipedia: Natural Family Planning

Biology 102.

As for the woman whose cycles are wildly irregular, how is she supposed to predict fertility? Cervical mucus evaluation?

“Some drugs, such as decongestants, can change cervical mucus. Women may not be able to rely on mucus-only forms of NFP while taking these drugs.” ~ “How to Observe and Record Your Fertility Signs”. Fertility Friend Handbook. Tamtris Web Services (2004). Retrieved on 2005-06-15.

How about women with fertility problems, such as PCOS? Or women who are just “under the weather”?
*
"Natural family planning is not as effective as most other methods of birth control. One in four women who use this method become pregnant. The method is not suited for:

* Women who should not get pregnant because of medical reasons

** * Women with irregular periods who may not be able to tell when they are fertile.**
* Women with abnormal bleeding, vaginitis, or cervicitis (these make the cervical mucus method unreliable)
* Women who use certain medications (for instance, antibiotics, thyroid medications, and antihistamines) that may change the nature of vaginal secretions, making mucus signs impossible to read
* Women with certain problems unrelated to fertility (for instance, fever) that can cause changes in basal body temperature"* ~ American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists

I’m ready for my NPF lesson. Please enlighten me. Thank you.

marietta

 

[TryingMyBest123]

marietta - In response to your questions:

Yes, by “aborted from the womb” I do mean failure to implant.
No, my wife does not “agree to the condition that no artificial birth control must be used in (our) marriage” - that’s why she went and got an IUS (IUD).

Also, my comment regarding an unplanned pregnancy being “anything but an low-chance ‘lottery’ occurrence” was made in light of the use of a 99%+ effective birth control on her part - the IUS - that *may *abort a baby through denial of implantation, from time to time.

And, regarding the use of “our free will” - it is precisely the free will of entering into sinful conditions or committing serious sin that I wish to avoid. One person’s “wisdom enough to avoid an unplanned pregnancy”, as you state, is another person’s “avoidance of pregnancy through the selfish murder of baby/fertilized egg.”

I am asking us (not just her) to forgo “self-protection”, as you call it, so that we can enter into the marital embrace without sinning. …after all, “entering into the marital embrace without sinning” sounds like a good thing to me, no??
You may have a point regarding the idea that the use of an IUD on her part (alone?) would not constitute “sinning” on my part, or might mitigate things a bit. But I’m not only in this marriage for me. It’s a WE thing, you see. But not only that. I’m concerned about the fate of my children. I don’t want to have any children, much less my own, aborted - killed - done away with…

Lastly, no. I would not be “guilty of sinning” if she had not told me about the IUD. But I hardly think that would be best thing insofar as it concerns ‘truth’, our marriage or our salvation.

 

[TryingMyBest123]

I am sure that you also believe that the life of the woman that you married and vow you both made to each other before God is very important. If your church forces you to choose between risking her life by having marital relations or not fully fulfilling your vow to love and honor her by abstaining…I would be running away from this church quickly! I don’t think either of you envisioned vows of celebacy.

emeraldcoast - yes, I consider our vows to each other important; and, of course, her life too.

Please note, however, that my Church does not “force us to choose” between “risking her life” or having marital relations. If there is true medical evidence or directive by a doctor to the effect that a pregnancy would “kill her” then the Church, as I understand it, would accept that condition as valid reason for ‘medicating’ in this way.

Any unintended side effects - such as a fertilized egg lost to denial of implantation - would be considered unintended (though wholly undesired!) and ‘forgivable’, as it were … if I’m not wildly mistaken. (I’m no official Catholic theologian).

Our Church is much deeper than many, many people know. There is much wisdom, knowledge *and *understanding in it. It’s not out there just to ‘spoil people’s fun’ as many would have you believe.

 

[ack]

Not quite.

If your wife is suffering from a health condition, she is free to treat that condition as necessary, even if the surgery or medication would result in the *secondary *consequence of infertility.

However, in a case where a pregnancy would kill your wife, she may not use contraception or sterilize herself, because infertility is the primary, intended consequence of the medication or surgery. The fact that such infertility may prevent pregnancy-related health problems is a moot point.

For example, your wife may obtain a hysterectomy if a health condition such as endometriosis makes it necessary. However, she may not do so to avoid a potentially dangerous pregnancy, if no health conditions necessitate the surgery.

Similar reasoning applies to abortion.

Please note, however, that my Church does not “force us to choose” between “risking her life” or having marital relations. If there is true medical evidence or directive by a doctor to the effect that a pregnancy would “kill her” then the Church, as I understand it, would accept that condition as valid reason for ‘medicating’ in this way.

Any unintended side effects - such as a fertilized egg lost to denial of implantation - would be considered unintended (though wholly undesired!) and ‘forgivable’, as it were … if I’m not wildly mistaken. (I’m no official Catholic theologian).

 

[rayne89]

kage_ar:

"There are three main types of NFP: the symptoms-based methods, the calendar-based methods, and the lactational amenorrhea method. Symptoms-based methods rely on biological signs of fertility, while calendar-based methods estimate the likelihood of fertility based on the length of past menstrual cycles.

"Calendar-based methods determine fertility based on a record of the length of previous menstrual cycles. They include the Rhythm Method and the Standard Days Method." ~ Wikipedia: Natural Family Planning

Biology 102.

As for the woman whose cycles are wildly irregular, how is she supposed to predict fertility? Cervical mucus evaluation?

“Some drugs, such as decongestants, can change cervical mucus. Women may not be able to rely on mucus-only forms of NFP while taking these drugs.” ~ “How to Observe and Record Your Fertility Signs”. Fertility Friend Handbook. Tamtris Web Services (2004). Retrieved on 2005-06-15.

How about women with fertility problems, such as PCOS? Or women who are just “under the weather”?

"Natural family planning is not as effective as most other methods of birth control. One in four women who use this method become pregnant. The method is not suited for:

** Women who should not get pregnant because of medical reasons*
**** Women with irregular periods who may not be able to tell when they are fertile.***
** Women with abnormal bleeding, vaginitis, or cervicitis (these make the cervical mucus method unreliable)*
** Women who use certain medications (for instance, antibiotics, thyroid medications, and antihistamines) that may change the nature of vaginal secretions, making mucus signs impossible to read*
** Women with certain problems unrelated to fertility (for instance, fever) that can cause changes in basal body temperature"* ~ American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists

I’m ready for my NPF lesson. Please enlighten me. Thank you.

marietta

Umm the sympto-thermal method, uses basal body temp, mucus signs as well as cervical position. I am in congestive heart failure due several congenital heart defects, if I get pregnant again the chances of me surviving that pregnancy are extremely unlikely barring a miracle from God. I have used the sympto-thermal method for 12 years without pregnancy. We have one child, she is 13 years old. After giving birth to her I was advised another pregnancy would be life threatening. My heart problems were progressing. I had been away from the church and just began returning during my pregnancy.

My husband and took an NFP class with a college size text book to make sure we understood this method and we follow the rules. There was a study done in Europe that was written about on the MSNBC website a couple years ago that showed the sympto-thermal method had a slightly higher effectiveness rate then the pill when used properly. Unfortunately the link no longer works.

There is a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about NFP out there even in the medical community, so it is understandable that you do not have the correct information about it.

All that being said if a spouse contracepts the non-contracepting spouse does not sin as long as the non-contracepting spouse in no way encourages contraception and does his/her best to explain the wrongness of contraception. I understand it still would be hard to deal with the abortifacient factor. Thinking about the possibilty of children being conceived and lost due the effects of the pill could make it very difficult even though the church does not find the non-contraceptig spouse culpable.

 

[emeraldcoast]

emeraldcoast - yes, I consider our vows to each other important; and, of course, her life too.

Please note, however, that my Church does not “force us to choose” between “risking her life” or having marital relations. If there is true medical evidence or directive by a doctor to the effect that a pregnancy would “kill her” then the Church, as I understand it, would accept that condition as valid reason for ‘medicating’ in this way.

Any unintended side effects - such as a fertilized egg lost to denial of implantation - would be considered unintended (though wholly undesired!) and ‘forgivable’, as it were … if I’m not wildly mistaken. (I’m no official Catholic theologian).

Our Church is much deeper than many, many people know. There is much wisdom, knowledge *and *understanding in it. It’s not out there just to ‘spoil people’s fun’ as many would have you believe.

Please check what your church teaches if one spouse is positive for HIV/Hep C. You will find that the use of a condom is not allowed to protect the other spouse from HIV/ Hep C. Prolife??

Please try and read information about Catholic Bishop Kevin Dowling and the fight on HIV and condoms.

God Bless!

 

[kamz]

tryingmybest, when you and your wife were engaged did she feel as she does now or did she feel the same as you? I’m just wondering if she always felt this way or if something happened along the way to make her change her mind.

 

[marietta]

rayne89:

I have not provided misinformation in my post, and I have notated my sources.

You are certainly welcome to edit the Wikipedia source or stand toe-to-toe with ACOG if you wish.

Please be specific when rendering judgment on the authenticity of information provided by another poster.

Thank you.

marietta

 

[TryingMyBest123]

emeraldcoast - I believe that Bishop Kevin Dowling is bucking Pontifical authority.

 

[MariaTheresa]

Has this issue been resolved for you?

 

[emeraldcoast]

emeraldcoast - I believe that Bishop Kevin Dowling is bucking Pontifical authority.

Praise God!

 

[TryingMyBest123]

emeraldcoast - I’m all for “praising God” but I’m not going to read works by that Bishop.

 

[Salonika]

Dear TryingMyBest123

Been reading through this thread and a couple of questions/concerns came to mind. Thought I’d mention them in case they are relevant to your situation if they are not, then ignore them.

If I had your wife’s concerns about the health effects of becoming pregnant in my later 40’s, I’d also have concerns about what would happen to any child I bore if I was unable to care for them through illness brought on by the pregnancy or if I did not survive the birth.

For the former I’d be concerned about how I could care for the child, about bonding with it, of bringing a child into the world that I could only partially care for.

In the later, I’d be concerned about how my husband could care for the child, who would do so if he couldn’t. I’d be concerned about my husband remarrying and my child taking second place to any children of the later marriage or being lost amongst older children from any earlier marriages of his new wife. I might wonder how my husband would feel about a child who had led to his wife’s death. Knowing of examples of when these things have happened would make it difficult for me to put these out of my mind.

I’d be concerned that I had allowed a child to come into a potentially dangerous or unhealthy situation and feel guilty about it.

But then this may nor relevant and say more about me than your wife.

 

[TryingMyBest123]

Thank you all for your prayerful (name removed by moderator)ut.

God Bless you.

TMB

 

[VinceASA]

You and I have a very similar issue. If you are like me, you are a bit frustrated and would like to be able to share with others what you are going through. You might want to peruse my thread on this topic from 2 years ago:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=156274&highlight=spouse+contracepts

My situation has not changed. In fact, my wife has become more stubborn and now pressures me to spend less time in my devotional life (daily mass, rosary, etc.).

I’ve also been surprised at the lack of support for men that are in this situation. Usually, it is the other way around - the woman does not want to contracept, but the husband does. I’ve thought of starting an informal “support group” for husbands - if nothing else, we can share and perhaps be a source of strength for each other.

I invite you to send me a private message if you are interested in starting a dialoge.

 

[PaulinVA]

emerald coast -

I think it is pretty arrogant on your part to post about marriage, contraception and sexual ethics when half of each post contains a huge signature block that is an advertisement for a post-christian “church” that was the first to allow artificial birth control, is a member of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, ordains women who have had abortions while in seminary, advocates/blesses homosexual unions, and ordains bishops that have been divorced twice and remarried yet again.