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Sir_Knight
Guest
My opinion based on infallible church teaching that animals do not have a soul and that the soul is the only thing that can survive death and pass on into the afterlife.
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Marie
Guest
Sir Knight:
Obviously, you don’t much care for animals in the first place. Such is life. The good news is, you probably won’t have to be bothered by animals in heaven. I hear tell God has an animal free zone for those that dislike dogs, cats etc. 
UMMM! Now Saint Francis just might disagree with you.
Obviously, you don’t much care for animals in the first place. Such is life. The good news is, you probably won’t have to be bothered by animals in heaven. I hear tell God has an animal free zone for those that dislike dogs, cats etc.
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mlchance
Guest
Sir Knight:
– Mark L. Chance.
Church teaching is that animals do have souls, and I’m unaware of any specific doctrine claiming “that the soul is the only thing that can survive death and pass on into the afterlife,” which is unsurprising, since such a teaching would directly contradict the Assumption and Christ’s resurrection in a glorified body.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
That would be an incorrect assumption on your part. I own two turtles which I’ve been raising since shortly after their birth – they started out smaller than a quarter and are now larger than a football. Additionally, I haven’t been without a dog in the house (except for brief periods when one dog died and prior to the purchase of a new one) since the age of 4 and I am now 44. So, I’ve been a dog owner for almost four decades.
I would love to see one of my dogs again who I was particularly attached to and who died suddenly at a very early age. But what I want is not the issue. Man’s spiritual eyes should never be focused on his pets (indeed, upon himself) where he loves the creation more than the creator. His eyes should be squarely on the great Shepherd, and the commission we have been given to feed His Sheep. That should be our hope, and that is what is lacking in our Churches today. The thought of spending eternity along with our beloved pets may be a temporal comfort as we are in the flesh, but we are losing sight of where our real joy and comfort should come from. It doesn’t come from me and my relationship to my pet in heaven, or even my loved ones in heaven, but my relationship with Christ.
God has an animal free zone for all of heaven.… I hear tell God has an animal free zone for those that dislike dogs, cats etc.
Where? When?
The Judeo-Christian Church belief has historically been that animals were created primarily for human use, and they lack the immortal and rational souls which would afford them eternity in Heaven. * Revelation 20:13 = “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” The souls of ‘men’ are raised up, not animals. They that have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29). There is nothing in scripture that has ever declared that the spirits of animals go to heaven.
- Luke 20:34-35 = “And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.” Heaven is not like the earth where there are human needs and interactions with the creation, in heaven, people neither marry or are given in marriage, because these are earthly, temporal things, which are not important in Heaven. This view of the souls of animals coming into heaven just as people is without one piece of Biblical validation.
- Genesis 1:26-27 = “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” What many do not understand is that mankind is a ‘unique creation,’ with exclusive properties which animals do not possess. Because man was made in the image or likeness of God, he is a living rational spirit able to think, reason, know and devise, because he is like God. As opposed to animals who are simply living spirits. That is to say, creatures with the breath of life. There is a difference, and that difference is what separates man from the beasts. When God created man, He placed in Him something animals do not have. An everlasting being or essence, which most people call the eternal soul. The belief that animals possess a rational souls or the everlasting being which man has, is untenable. Beasts are unquestionably not made in the likeness or image of God. Moreover, it would be unlawful and barbaric to slaughter these blessed creatures (assuming they went to heaven) or animals for food, clothing, or anything else if they were rational souls. The historic Church understood this, because God commanded animals to be slaughtered for food, sacrifice, and offerings.
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ShockleyHaynes
Guest
I may be misremembering something, but didn’t the idea of Heaven grow in the Bible after the Old Testament? As I recall, all animate creatures possessed souls, and–after death–the only place anything went was Sheol.
It sure would have been nice if someone mentioned critters in a favorable light, in the Bible. I expect less cruelty would exist toward them, casually, if there were some respect for them as living creatures.
Because that’s what the distinction between soul’ed and unsoul’ed creatures creates: a tier of respect as being actually alive, versus hypothetically alive.
It sure would have been nice if someone mentioned critters in a favorable light, in the Bible. I expect less cruelty would exist toward them, casually, if there were some respect for them as living creatures.
Because that’s what the distinction between soul’ed and unsoul’ed creatures creates: a tier of respect as being actually alive, versus hypothetically alive.
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mlchance
Guest
Sir Knight:
You also claimed that the Church teaches “that the soul is the only thing that can survive death and pass on into the afterlife,” which must come as quite a surprise to the Blessed Virgin.
IOW, you have nothing but your opinion - which shifts terminology and even ignores dogma when convenient - to claim that there will never be any animals in Heaven.
One more time: Heaven as it is now is not the eternal realm of the Beatific Vision. It is, for lack of a better word, a temporary Heaven. There will be a new Heaven and a new Earth. All of the righteous will be re-embodied in glorified bodies to live forever in this new Heaven and new Earth. There is no reason to doubt this new Earth will include a glorious diversity of animal life just as was God’s intention “in the beginning.”
If God, in his infinite wisdom and love, decides that my cat gets a pass and will be included, then it will be so.
Nothing you or anyone else here has said rules out this possibility.
– Mark L. Chance.
Now you’re equivocating. First, you claim the Church teaches that animals don’t have souls, which isn’t true. Now, you claim the Church teaches animals don’t have the kind of soul that humans have, which no one has disputed.
You also claimed that the Church teaches “that the soul is the only thing that can survive death and pass on into the afterlife,” which must come as quite a surprise to the Blessed Virgin.
IOW, you have nothing but your opinion - which shifts terminology and even ignores dogma when convenient - to claim that there will never be any animals in Heaven.
One more time: Heaven as it is now is not the eternal realm of the Beatific Vision. It is, for lack of a better word, a temporary Heaven. There will be a new Heaven and a new Earth. All of the righteous will be re-embodied in glorified bodies to live forever in this new Heaven and new Earth. There is no reason to doubt this new Earth will include a glorious diversity of animal life just as was God’s intention “in the beginning.”
If God, in his infinite wisdom and love, decides that my cat gets a pass and will be included, then it will be so.
Nothing you or anyone else here has said rules out this possibility.
– Mark L. Chance.
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barsapp
Guest
Sir Knight:
Again, Saint Francis… Did he love creation more than God? Because he loved God so perfectly, he also loved creation so admirably. Is it not one of the proofs of God’s existence the perfection of creation? Through creation we discover God. Through revelation we discover Christ. Could we reasonably say that any of God’s creatures will perish forever? When the Christ says, “I make all things new", we can positive be sure that ALL things are included, all creation, we, pets, animals, the most little flower. Nothing is impossible to God. Some examples taken from the gospel on heaven and marriage do not fit here. Marriage has to do with human relationship and social stability. It is quite clear that it is not necessary in Heaven. But this has nothing to do with animals (the term also includes our loved pets), a sign of “existence without sin” following a mystical approach. Humans and animals are different things. Ok. So are angels. But I’d recommend, and this is a philosophical approach, not to magnify the difference. Why? We see it every day. Experiment with animals, next step: experiment with humans. Clone animals, next step: clone humans. Cruelty on animals, next step: cruelty on humans. Etc., etc. (This also applies to the respect for the dead: organ donation and exploitation of corpses lead to the final abuse of the living. But this is another argument). The main idea is: all creatures share a mysterious communion with God, Christ. As we have a common Creator, we have a common fate. These are not personal opinions. The fact that some topics are not so developed in the bible does not mean that we can not speculate on them. Imagine the future world is a necessary exercise. Leave any of the blessed God’s creatures outside, would contradict God’s love.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
I have provided a few scipture passages which I believe support my position. Care to provide a few scripture passages or quotes from church doctrine which will support your position?
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mlchance
Guest
Sir Knight:
– Mark L. Chance.
I’ve done so. So have others. You, OTOH, are still ignoring the fact that your position has been propped up (in part) by an explicit denial of Catholic dogma. You also claimed that the Church teaches “that the soul is the only thing that can survive death and pass on into the afterlife.” This isn’t true.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Marie
Guest
Sir Knight:
CCC:
Several posters have already…are you not reading them?
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Marie
Guest
In 1990, Pope John Paul II, proclaimed that all animals are “fruit of the creative action of the Holy Spirit and merit respect” and that they are “as near to God as men are.”
The Holy Father reminded people that all living beings, including animals, came into being because of the “breath” of God. After he became Pope, John Paul II, went to Assisi, the birthplace of St. Francis, and spoke of the saint’s love for animals. He declared, “We, too, are called to a similar attitude.”
December 8, 1989.
JOANNES PAULUS PP. II
The Holy Father reminded people that all living beings, including animals, came into being because of the “breath” of God. After he became Pope, John Paul II, went to Assisi, the birthplace of St. Francis, and spoke of the saint’s love for animals. He declared, “We, too, are called to a similar attitude.”
December 8, 1989.
JOANNES PAULUS PP. II
- At the conclusion of this Message, I should like to address directly my brothers and sisters in the Catholic Church, in order to remind them of their serious obligation to care for all of creation. The commitment of believers to a healthy environment for everyone stems directly from their belief in God the Creator, from their recognition of the effects of original and personal sin, and from the certainty of having been redeemed by Christ. Respect for life and for the dignity of the human person extends also to the rest of creation, which is called to join man in praising God (cf. Ps 148:96).
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Marie
Guest
Pope Pius XI - Rite expiatis - On Saint Francis of Assisi - 13 April 1926
As the Herald of the Great King, his purposes were directed to persuading men to conform their lives to the dictates of evangelical sanctity and to the love of the Cross, not that they should become mere friends or lovers of flowers, birds, lambs, fishes or hares. He seemed filled with a great and tender affection for animals, and “no matter how small they were” he called them all “by the name of brother and sister” – a love which if it is kept within bounds is assuredly not prohibited by any law. This love of animals was due to no other cause than his own love of God, which moved him to love these creatures because he knew that they had the same origin as he
(St. Bonaventure, Legenda Maior, Chap VIII, No. 6) and in them all he perceived the goodness of God. St. Francis, too, “saw the image of the Beloved imprinted on all things, and made of these things a ladder whereby to reach His throne.”
**(Thomas of Celano, Legenda Chap. II, No. 165) ** and many more if you care to read them.
As the Herald of the Great King, his purposes were directed to persuading men to conform their lives to the dictates of evangelical sanctity and to the love of the Cross, not that they should become mere friends or lovers of flowers, birds, lambs, fishes or hares. He seemed filled with a great and tender affection for animals, and “no matter how small they were” he called them all “by the name of brother and sister” – a love which if it is kept within bounds is assuredly not prohibited by any law. This love of animals was due to no other cause than his own love of God, which moved him to love these creatures because he knew that they had the same origin as he
(St. Bonaventure, Legenda Maior, Chap VIII, No. 6) and in them all he perceived the goodness of God. St. Francis, too, “saw the image of the Beloved imprinted on all things, and made of these things a ladder whereby to reach His throne.”
**(Thomas of Celano, Legenda Chap. II, No. 165) ** and many more if you care to read them.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
I had a favorite tree (I used to climb it) as a child. Will it be there in heaven? What about the tree I passed and admired on the highway a few days ago? Will it be there in heaven? What about my nice flat-screen computer monitor that I’m very fond of? Will it be there in heaven?
OF COURSE NOT!
Don’t be SILLY. These things are part of God’s Creation, and He loves His Creation, but that DOES NOT mean everything that God ever created will be in heaven! That’s DUMB! Sorry for being blunt, but it’s DUMB! DUMB, DUMB, DUMB (and absolutely NOT supported by any authentic Catholic theology that ANYONE can cite).
Your pets are THINGS. They will be MEANINGLESS to you in Heaven. You will NOT miss them or care for them, any more than you miss or care for your car or your house or your big-screen TV or your favorite childhood climbing tree.
OF COURSE NOT!
Don’t be SILLY. These things are part of God’s Creation, and He loves His Creation, but that DOES NOT mean everything that God ever created will be in heaven! That’s DUMB! Sorry for being blunt, but it’s DUMB! DUMB, DUMB, DUMB (and absolutely NOT supported by any authentic Catholic theology that ANYONE can cite).
Your pets are THINGS. They will be MEANINGLESS to you in Heaven. You will NOT miss them or care for them, any more than you miss or care for your car or your house or your big-screen TV or your favorite childhood climbing tree.
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Marie
Guest
Obviously you lack a bit of clarity in expressing your opinion. LOL! Sorry…could not resist. DUMB and Silly are not quite the correct way to frame the subject.Ahem…You are theologically somewhat correct. On the other hand your wrong.
It is a difficult thing to explain though. Even Father Hardon had a hard time trying to explain it. 
Father John A. Hardon, S.J.
**Q. Is it correct to say that pets do not go to Heaven after death because animals do not have immortal souls? Are religious medals for pets wrong? Do they lead to misunderstanding about animals, souls, and Heaven?
—I.R., Michigan **
A. Pets, as pets, do not go to Heaven. But animals and such like beings may be said to be brought to Heaven because, after the Last Day, they can serve as part of the joys of Heaven. In other words, animals and such like creatures may be said to be brought to Heaven to serve as part of our Heavenly joys. Clearly, we do not need pets to provide happiness in Heaven. But pets and such like creatures will be brought to Heaven to become part of our creaturely happiness in the Heavenly kingdom. Consequently, we may say that animals and such like creatures may be brought to Heaven by God to enable us to enjoy them as part of our creaturely happiness in Heavenly beatitude.
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mlchance
Guest
People have cited the relevant theology. That your opinion differs doesn’t make anything to the contrary dumb.
But it apparently makes you rude.
– Mark L. Chance.
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barsapp
Guest
do not worry, you are not being blunt, but shallow…
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barsapp
Guest
Dostoevsky’s Brothers Karamazov
Of the Holy Scriptures in the Life of Father Zossima.
“In my youth, long ago, nearly forty years ago, I travelled all over Russia with Father Anfim, collecting funds for our monastery, and we stayed one night on the bank of a great navigable river with some fishermen. A good looking peasant lad, about eighteen, joined us; he had to hurry back next morning to pull a merchant’s barge along the bank. I noticed him looking straight before him with clear and tender eyes. It was a bright, warm, still, July night, a cool mist rose from the broad river, we could hear the plash of a fish, the birds were still, all was hushed and beautiful, everything praying to God. Only we two were not sleeping, the lad and I, and we talked of the beauty of this world of God’s and of the great mystery of it. Every blade of grass, every insect, ant, and golden bee, all so marvellously know their path, though they have not intelligence, they bear witness to the mystery of God and continually accomplish it themselves. I saw the dear lad’s heart was moved. He told me that he loved the forest and the forest birds. He was a bird-catcher, knew the note of each of them, could call each bird. “I know nothing better than to be in the forest,” said he, “though all things are good.”
“Truly,” I answered him, “all things are good and fair, because all is truth. Look,” said I, “at the horse, that great beast that is so near to man; or the lowly, pensive ox, which feeds him and works for him; look at their faces, what meekness, what devotion to man, who often beats them mercilessly. What gentleness, what confidence and what beauty! It’s touching to know that there’s no sin in them, for all, all except man, is sinless, and Christ has been with them before us.”
“Why,” asked the boy, “is Christ with them too?”
“It cannot but be so,” said I, “since the Word is for all. All creation and all creatures, every leaf is striving to the Word, singing glory to God, weeping to Christ, unconsciously accomplishing this by the mystery of their sinless life. Yonder,” said I, “in the forest wanders the dreadful bear, fierce and menacing, and yet innocent in it.” And I told him how once a bear came to a great saint who had taken refuge in a tiny cell in the wood. And the great saint pitied him, went up to him without fear and gave him a piece of bread. “Go along,” said he, “Christ be with you,” and the savage beast walked away meekly and obediently, doing no harm. And the lad was delighted that the bear had walked away without hurting the saint, and that Christ was with him too. “Ah,” said he, “how good that is, how good and beautiful is all God’s work!”
“Love the animals: God has given them the rudiments of thought and joy untroubled. Do not trouble it, don’t harass them, don’t deprive them of their happiness, don’t work against God’s intent. Man, do not pride yourself on superiority to the animals; they are without sin, and you, with your greatness, defile the earth by your appearance on it, and leave the traces of your foulness after you – alas, it is true of almost every one of us!”
Of the Holy Scriptures in the Life of Father Zossima.
“In my youth, long ago, nearly forty years ago, I travelled all over Russia with Father Anfim, collecting funds for our monastery, and we stayed one night on the bank of a great navigable river with some fishermen. A good looking peasant lad, about eighteen, joined us; he had to hurry back next morning to pull a merchant’s barge along the bank. I noticed him looking straight before him with clear and tender eyes. It was a bright, warm, still, July night, a cool mist rose from the broad river, we could hear the plash of a fish, the birds were still, all was hushed and beautiful, everything praying to God. Only we two were not sleeping, the lad and I, and we talked of the beauty of this world of God’s and of the great mystery of it. Every blade of grass, every insect, ant, and golden bee, all so marvellously know their path, though they have not intelligence, they bear witness to the mystery of God and continually accomplish it themselves. I saw the dear lad’s heart was moved. He told me that he loved the forest and the forest birds. He was a bird-catcher, knew the note of each of them, could call each bird. “I know nothing better than to be in the forest,” said he, “though all things are good.”
“Truly,” I answered him, “all things are good and fair, because all is truth. Look,” said I, “at the horse, that great beast that is so near to man; or the lowly, pensive ox, which feeds him and works for him; look at their faces, what meekness, what devotion to man, who often beats them mercilessly. What gentleness, what confidence and what beauty! It’s touching to know that there’s no sin in them, for all, all except man, is sinless, and Christ has been with them before us.”
“Why,” asked the boy, “is Christ with them too?”
“It cannot but be so,” said I, “since the Word is for all. All creation and all creatures, every leaf is striving to the Word, singing glory to God, weeping to Christ, unconsciously accomplishing this by the mystery of their sinless life. Yonder,” said I, “in the forest wanders the dreadful bear, fierce and menacing, and yet innocent in it.” And I told him how once a bear came to a great saint who had taken refuge in a tiny cell in the wood. And the great saint pitied him, went up to him without fear and gave him a piece of bread. “Go along,” said he, “Christ be with you,” and the savage beast walked away meekly and obediently, doing no harm. And the lad was delighted that the bear had walked away without hurting the saint, and that Christ was with him too. “Ah,” said he, “how good that is, how good and beautiful is all God’s work!”
“Love the animals: God has given them the rudiments of thought and joy untroubled. Do not trouble it, don’t harass them, don’t deprive them of their happiness, don’t work against God’s intent. Man, do not pride yourself on superiority to the animals; they are without sin, and you, with your greatness, defile the earth by your appearance on it, and leave the traces of your foulness after you – alas, it is true of almost every one of us!”
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barsapp
Guest
Things???
Could you take a couple of minutes and read posts 28, 50 and 51 (many thanks Marie!!!), 57?
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Sir_Knight
Guest
According to the Catholic the Catechism …
"356 Of all visible creatures only man is “able to know and love his creator”. 219 He is “the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake”, 220 and he alone is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity:
‘What made you establish man in so great a dignity? Certainly the incalculable love by which you have looked on your creature in yourself! You are taken with love for her; for by love indeed you created her, by love you have given her a being capable of tasting your eternal Good.’ 221
358 God created everything for man, 222 but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to him: What is it that is about to be created, that enjoys such honor? It is man that great and wonderful living creature, more precious in the eyes of God than all other creatures! For him the heavens and the earth, the sea and all the rest of creation exist.
1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul, 5 the human person is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake." 6 From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.
2415 … Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity."
The Church plainly teaches us that God made man, and no other wordly creature, for the purpose of being with Him in Heaven; and that He made animals, plants and all the rest of creation for the purpose of man’s use in this world.
"356 Of all visible creatures only man is “able to know and love his creator”. 219 He is “the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake”, 220 and he alone is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity:
‘What made you establish man in so great a dignity? Certainly the incalculable love by which you have looked on your creature in yourself! You are taken with love for her; for by love indeed you created her, by love you have given her a being capable of tasting your eternal Good.’ 221
358 God created everything for man, 222 but man in turn was created to serve and love God and to offer all creation back to him: What is it that is about to be created, that enjoys such honor? It is man that great and wonderful living creature, more precious in the eyes of God than all other creatures! For him the heavens and the earth, the sea and all the rest of creation exist.
1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul, 5 the human person is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake." 6 From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.
2415 … Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity."
The Church plainly teaches us that God made man, and no other wordly creature, for the purpose of being with Him in Heaven; and that He made animals, plants and all the rest of creation for the purpose of man’s use in this world.
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mjdonnelly
Guest
Sir Knight:
Thanks for the reference!
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