Will the Church be forced to perform homosexual "marriages?"

[christopher-m]

Any thinking Catholic can see what’s coming at us down the road. The evil that smothered Canadian lawmakers the other day when they legitimized “gay marriages” won’t be the end of it – it’s going to get worse if good men and women don’t do something to stop the onslaught against families and marriage. The unnatural outcome of all this will be to force people licensed by the State to preside at marriages to perform “gay marriages,” and that will include Catholic priests.
Did anyone notice that the Scripture readings on the day that the world sank deeper into immorality included Genesis 19: 15-29, the Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

 

[Aureole]

christopher-m:

Did anyone notice that the Scripture readings on the day that the world sank deeper into immorality included Genesis 19: 15-29, the Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

I read that this was the case, but I personally missed Mass that day.

 

[Digitonomy]

christopher-m:

The unnatural outcome of all this will be to force people licensed by the State to preside at marriages to perform “gay marriages,” and that will include Catholic priests.

AFAIK, the State has not in the past and is unlikely in the future to require a church to marry any particular couple, or class of persons. This is not only true in Canada, but also in the US. For instance, it’s perfectly legal in some states for me to marry my thrice-divorced pagan double-first cousin. Doesn’t mean I can do anything about it if the Church refuses to perform or recognize such an act.

If you can make a case to support your contention, I’m all ears. If you’re just being alarmist… well, that’s what I thought.

 

[bmelosi]

Digitonomy,

If the courts can tell Catholic Charities that they have to provide birth control in their medical benefits what else may happen? A couple of years ago you would have called christopher-m an alarmist if he would have said that courts are going to legalize same-sex marriage.

This quote

“If you can make a case to support your contention, I’m all ears. If you’re just being alarmist… well, that’s what I thought.”

Sounds smug, I hope that isn’t what you were trying to get across and I just got it wrong.

 

[christopher-m]

A reminder to folks who think I’m an alarmist: Catholic medical providers – hospitals, doctors, etc. – are being pressured by the state of California to provide abortions and contaceptives on demand if they wish to continue to receive state funds (such as Medicaid) for patient treatment. I’m not sure where this stands today, but if the State can force a Catholic hospital to commit murder, what stops the State from requiring the Church to legitimize sodomy?
Tag me with whatever moniker you wish – morality is not negotiable, and some of us are weary of the loud, obnoxious defenders of perverted “lifestyles.”

 

[Promotor_Fidei]

In Canada many expect that the Church will be taken to court over refusing to marry a gay couple. There are two components to a marriage… the civil and the religious. A gay couple can possibly claim that by refusing to marry them, a priest is abusing the privilege of writing marriage licenses. I’ve heard that there are homosexual groups preparing such a suit now.

The simple way out of that dilemma is for the Church to no longer issue marriage licenses. I think that the Church should stop doing so now everywhere, since clearly there is no relation between what nations call “marriage” and what the Church does. By having priests issue marriage licenses, it confers legitimacy on civil marriage that it simply does not deserve.

Still, the anti-discrimination section of the Canadian charter is written so loosely as to allow an especially liberal court to order a priest to perform the sacrament of marriage for a homosexual couple or face two years in jail for discriminating against them. If that happens, one hopes that God will grant the clergy the grace to endure martyrdom for the faith.

“absent unique circumstances with respect to which the Court will not speculate, the guarantee of religious freedom in s. 2(a) of the Charter is broad enough to protect religious officials …”

“Unique circumstances”… clearly, an exception large enough to sail and ocean liner through.

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

The unnatural outcome of all this will be to force people licensed by the State to preside at marriages to perform “gay marriages,” and that will include Catholic priests.

I think Catholic Church will not allow this! And I am sure of that! The court may allow this but the Church will never allow this! Lets Pray for out priests and bishops!

Catholic medical providers – hospitals, doctors, etc. – are being pressured by the state of California to provide abortions and contaceptives on demand

VERY SAD NEWS! LET’S PRAY THAT THE PRIESTS WILL NOT ENGAGE IN THIS IMMORALITY NO MATTER WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES WOULD BE!

 

[Digitonomy]

Don’t really remember the details of the Catholic Charities case, but somehow I think it was the state which required them to provide birth control, and the courts simply upheld it.

However, regulating the work environment and benefits of sizeable employers is a bit different from forcing an organization to engage in a particular business. Catholic Charities was not required to provide birth control in its various charity work. Similarly, the state is not forcing doctors to perform abortions, but only making it a condition for being part of a particular plan. Moreover, telling a religion that it must perform a certain sacrament is a step I have not heard of anywhere in the free world.

The step we see taken in Canada is one of less restriction. The state by its action is saying “You want to perform a sacrament to wed two guys? Have at it, we will no longer stand in your way.” There is certainly no coercion.

Perhaps I am smug about this issue, as I am about the fact that the sparrow chirping at my window won’t become the next President. The idea that the state would require certain weddings is simply lunacy, and will not happen in my lifetime. I wasn’t sure whether christopher-m actually believed it, or was simply engaging in hyperbole.

Crying “wolf” about this doesn’t seem very productive, especially when there are so many other real wolves infiltrating the flock.

 

[Siena]

It is this same complacent attitude that allowd much of this to happen in the first place. The idea that “this cannot possibly happen HERE” needs to stop! We need to be proactive- not reactive starting NOW!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Promotor Fidei:

In Canada many expect that the Church will be taken to court over refusing to marry a gay couple. There are two components to a marriage… the civil and the religious. A gay couple can possibly claim that by refusing to marry them, a priest is abusing the privilege of writing marriage licenses. I’ve heard that there are homosexual groups preparing such a suit now.

True.
Promotor Fidei:

Still, the anti-discrimination section of the Canadian charter is written so loosely as to allow an especially liberal court to order a priest to perform the sacrament of marriage for a homosexual couple or face two years in jail for discriminating against them.

Not true. The Charter is interpreted according to the principle of proportionality. That is, if two rights seemingly conflict, then a proportional balance is determined. What does this look like? Gay couples can be married by the civil authority. Any claims to force the Catholic church to marry them is hostile to the intent of the Charter.

Will the gay lobby try anyway? Yes. Many of them simply hate Jesus Christ and therefore the Church which He established. Some, however, do not. Some are searching like the rest of us poor slobs for truth, for purpose, and for life. Defeat is only a window of opportunity to press the question closer to an answer. Much now depends on ‘gay’ Catholics.

The Church has been too reactive. The Culture of Life needs to be part of every parish in the country. Not as a duty but as a joy.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Siena:

We need to be proactive- not reactive starting NOW!

True. Catholics for Life is meeting with some clergy next week. As soon as they have word, then I will have word. A plan is afoot. Just keep the suggestions flowing.

 

[Promotor_Fidei]

Ani Ibi:

True. Catholics for Life is meeting with some clergy next week. As soon as they have word, then I will have word. A plan is afoot. Just keep the suggestions flowing.

I’ll keep you and Church in Canada in prayer. If you lose, then activists here will be more energized to implement such restrictions on religious speech in the U.S…

Digitonomy:

The idea that the state would require certain weddings is simply lunacy, and will not happen in my lifetime. I wasn’t sure whether christopher-m actually believed it, or was simply engaging in hyperbole.

A bishop is already on trial in Canada for preaching Christ’s message. The people have lost speech and religious rights.

Just the other day in the US ‘The Supreme Court on Thursday said the Constitution doesn’t prohibit local governments from seizing private property for other private uses…’ And now Walmart can seize homes without negotiation. The people have lost a right. What rights will remain tomorrow?

Digitonomy:

Crying “wolf” about this doesn’t seem very productive, especially when there are so many other real wolves infiltrating the flock.

It’s not crying wolf… it’s a fact. Faithful Catholics are being persecuted in Canada. Many are already facing fines or jail time. This article touches on a few cases, but more have developed since:

christianclarion.com/new…5.05.04.26.html

All it takes for great evil to happen is for good men to do nothing.

 

[Digitonomy]

Promotor Fidei:

It’s not crying wolf… it’s a fact.

I simply don’t believe that churches in Canada or the US have been required by the state to perform gay marriages, or any other marriage which they object to. Although your link didn’t work, I sincerely doubt it makes that claim.

All it takes for great evil to happen is for good men to do nothing.

Or for good men to muster their efforts toward a non-existent threat, missing those threats that are very real.

 

[Promotor_Fidei]

Digitonomy:

I simply don’t believe that churches in Canada or the US have been required by the state to perform gay marriages, or any other marriage which they object to. Although your link didn’t work, I sincerely doubt it makes that claim.Or for good men to muster their efforts toward a non-existent threat, missing those threats that are very real.

Sorry, here are the links regarding current persecution in Canada:

christianclarion.com/news/archive.05.05.04.26.html

ignatiusinsight.com/features/mobrien_thoughtcrime_sept04.asp

canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Calgary/Bishop_Fred_Henry/2005/02/27/943782.html

‘Churches that oppose same-sex marriage legislation have good reason to fear for their charitable status, a leading gay-rights advocate is warning…“If you are at the public trough, if you are collecting taxpayers’ money, you should be following taxpayers’ laws. And that means adhering to the Charter,” says Kevin Bourassa, who in 2001 married Joe Varnell in one of Canada’s first gay weddings…“We have no problem with the Catholic Church or any other faith group promoting bigotry,” he said. “We have a problem with the Canadian government funding that bigotry.”’

from here: davidmacd.com/catholic/why_catholics_against_gay_marriage.htm

‘*Now under Bill C250 in Canada, a Canadian who in good conscience speaks out against gay sex can be thrown in prison for 2 years. *’

What I’d said earlier was this:

‘In Canada many expect that the Church will be taken to court over refusing to marry a gay couple. There are two components to a marriage… the civil and the religious. A gay couple can possibly claim that by refusing to marry them, a priest is abusing the privilege of writing marriage licenses. I’ve heard that there are homosexual groups preparing such a suit now.’

I can’t find the article I read on the artcile over the lawsuit being prepared regarding the Church & marriage licenses as expressed above, though apparantly Ani Ibi has also heard of it. Assuming I’m right, isn’t that an attempt to force the Church to perform gay marraiges?

Isn’t trying to remove the tax exempt status of the Church in Canda also an attempt to force the Church to accept gay marraiges?

If Bishop Henry supported gay marriage, would he be facing jail time now?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Promotor Fidei:

Sorry, here are the links regarding current persecution in Canada:

christianclarion.com/news/archive.05.05.04.26.html

ignatiusinsight.com/features/mobrien_thoughtcrime_sept04.asp

canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Calgary/Bishop_Fred_Henry/2005/02/27/943782.html

Thank you.

‘Churches that oppose same-sex marriage legislation have good reason to fear for their charitable status, a leading gay-rights advocate is warning…“If you are at the public trough, if you are collecting taxpayers’ money, you should be following taxpayers’ laws. And that means adhering to the Charter,” says Kevin Bourassa, who in 2001 married Joe Varnell in one of Canada’s first gay weddings…“We have no problem with the Catholic Church or any other faith group promoting bigotry,” he said. “We have a problem with the Canadian government funding that bigotry.”’

This is gay-lobby propaganda. What he terms ‘bigotry’ is actually protected as a fundamental right under the Charter. As far as money trails go: pot, kettle, mote, log…Judy Rebick’s website is being investigated as we speak.
Promotor Fidei:

I can’t find the article I read on the artcile over the lawsuit being prepared regarding the Church & marriage licenses as expressed above, though apparantly Ani Ibi has also heard of it. Assuming I’m right, isn’t that an attempt to force the Church to perform gay marraiges?

They’ll try. They won’t succeed.
Promotor Fidei:

Isn’t trying to remove the tax exempt status of the Church in Canda also an attempt to force the Church to accept gay marraiges?

No. The acquiescence of bishops such as Bishop Greco of Toronto (to threats of losing tax-exempt status) will force the Church to accept gay marriages.
Promotor Fidei:

If Bishop Henry supported gay marriage, would he be facing jail time now?

He’s not facing jail time. He’s facing a lawsuit which is necessary to clarify the role of the Church in Canadian society.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Promotor Fidei:

Faithful Catholics are being persecuted in Canada.

This is true. More poignantly so because the Church does not factor the little guy into the question when they speak of defending the Church. The little guy is getting openly slandered, subjected to hate propaganda, subjected to movements to evict him from housing, and so on. The Catholic Civil Rights League does not include the little guy under its umbrella. The bishops (some of them) are making deals with the rich and powerful to what end? What are you fighting for, Catholics!

 

[Promotor_Fidei]

Ani Ibi:

No. The acquiescence of bishops such as Bishop Greco of Toronto (to threats of losing tax-exempt status) will force the Church to accept gay marriages.

Sad, truly. Thanks for info. I pray that Pope Benedict transfers Bishop Grecco to the diocese of Parthenia (an entirely empty Saharan diocese) to be an auxiliary to the mad Bishop Gaillot.

The bishops (some of them) are making deals with the rich and powerful to what end? What are you fighting for, Catholics!

They’re fighting for their faith, even if some worldly, apostate bishops are selling them and the Church out. I pray that your exhortations wakes some Canadians up.

‘Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. … I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia.’ - Puddleglum from “The Silver Chair”, C.S. Lewis

It is my understanding that groups such as the Catholic Civil Rights League have quite limited funding. I’m not sure I’d blame them for picking their battles. A lot of people never thought Canada would actually persecute Catholics and didn’t prepare. Still, that’s no comfort when people are tried for thought crimes:

‘a British Columbia court upheld the one-month suspension, without pay, of a high school teacher who wrote letters to a local paper arguing that homosexuality is not a fixed orientation but a condition that can and should be treated. The teacher, Chris Kempling, was not accused of discrimination, merely of expressing thoughts that the state defines as improper.’
article8.org/docs/general/AffectsYou.htm

“I die the King’s good servant-but God’s first.” - St. Thomas More.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Promotor Fidei:

Sad, truly. Thanks for info. I pray that Pope Benedict transfers Bishop Grecco to the diocese of Parthenia (an entirely empty Saharan diocese) to be an auxiliary to the mad Bishop Gaillot.

*Location *
*Location *
*Location! *
**
Even better: Canada has her own deserts. Drumheller, for instance, where quite a few dinosaur fossils have been found. :bigyikes:

 

[PLAL]

christopher-m:

Any thinking Catholic can see what’s coming at us down the road. The evil that smothered Canadian lawmakers the other day when they legitimized “gay marriages” won’t be the end of it – it’s going to get worse if good men and women don’t do something to stop the onslaught against families and marriage. The unnatural outcome of all this will be to force people licensed by the State to preside at marriages to perform “gay marriages,” and that will include Catholic priests.
Did anyone notice that the Scripture readings on the day that the world sank deeper into immorality included Genesis 19: 15-29, the Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

There was a good show on this on Catholic Answers. The show is not yet posted for July 1st yet but should be soon…

catholic.com/radio/calive.asp

 

[Darrel]

It just keeps going on and on. I am so glad I am a Catholic now. The CC would never pull this. This seems like it’s about more then homosexuality. The biproduct is just further erosion of sexual purity in general. I wonder if churches will have porn site links on there websites in 20 years or less perhaps.

-D

connecticut.cox.net/cci/newsnational/national?_mode=view&_state=maximized&view=article&id=D8B4P34O0