Will the new Assyrian Catholicos-Patriarch be the one of the reunified Church of the East?

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As you may know, HH Mar Dinkha IV, Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East, died and this week there was held a “council” to elect a new one. But prior to this, there was another meeting of delegations of mentioned church and of the Ancient Church of the East. See: news.assyrianchurch.org/2015/05/24/press-release/12297.

Here news.assyrianchurch.org/2015/06/05/communique-of-the-council-of-hierarchs/12320 you can find
  1. Concerning the affairs of Assyrian Church of the East, and specifically the important matter of the election and ordination of the new Catholicos-Patriarch for the holy and apostolic see of Seleucia-Ctesiphon, the Council of Hierarchs discerns and realizes its obedience to the command of Christ our Lord and Savior: “That they may all be one” (John 17:21). The Council finds it proper and meet to give sufficient time at the present juncture to dialogue and realize the unity of the two branches of the Church of the East, namely the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, by rehabilitating formal talks and efforts for reunification that have ceased for many years now. Therefore, the Council of Hierarchs has unanimously decided to presently postpone the election of the new Catholicos-Patriarch, now to take place on September 16, 2015, followed by the ordination of the patriarch-elect on Sunday, September 27, 2015 in Erbil, Iraq. The Council requests that the clergy and faithful of both Churches fervently pray to the Lord for the unity of the Church and for the election and ordination of the new Catholicos-Patriarch, who will be elected by the Holy Spirit from among the hierarchs of the Church meeting in council in mid-September of this year. The Holy Church will work towards making this council the one and only unified Council of Hierarchs for the greater glory or the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and for the good of the Holy Church.
what sounds to me like if there is (a) will to bring hierarchs of both churches together and to elect one “commnon” catholicos for both of them, or maybe for one reunified.
 
The Church of the East was always outside the orbit of Rome, both the Church and the Empire.
Although they have always had I high petrine view which viewed project of Peter and Rome in the same manner as Catholics do today. Even after their church went into schism
 
Perhaps we can win these Orthodox over with the soothing twangs of guitars and the limber motions of liturgical dancers 🙂
 
Oh my goodness, this got me so riled up because instead of Ancient Chruch of the East and Church of the East I thougth this was about Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholicism. I thougth there might be a reunification within catholicism. :rolleyes:

Damn, for a moment I was really riled up.

But I hope that the Nestorians sort this one out. The split was pretty meaningless. They had a schism over a change of the calendar.
 
Perhaps we can win these Orthodox over with the soothing twangs of guitars and the limber motions of liturgical dancers 🙂
Your humor points out why many have fled the Latin Rite for the Byzantine Rite or Holy Orthodoxy.
 
Oh my goodness, this got me so riled up because instead of Ancient Chruch of the East and Church of the East I thougth this was about Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholicism. I thougth there might be a reunification within catholicism. :rolleyes:

Damn, for a moment I was really riled up.

But I hope that the Nestorians sort this one out. The split was pretty meaningless. They had a schism over a change of the calendar.
They aren’t Nestorians. Please don’t call those who use the Liturgy of Addai and Mari Nestorians.
 
They aren’t Nestorians. Please don’t call those who use the Liturgy of Addai and Mari Nestorians.
Weren’t they unofficially called Nestorians? The way I saw it, nestorianism had a lot of impact on the Chruch of the East. But I do think lots of it is a thing of the past as of now. It wasn’t meant offensive really. Is Nestorian offensive to Syriac christians such as yourself? Do you see the church of your history in part as Nestorian, historically speaken ?
 
I see our history as “nestorian”–but people have no idea what that entails anymore.

escholar.manchester.ac.uk/api/datastream?publicationPid=uk-ac-man-scw:1m2396&datastreamId=POST-PEER-REVIEW-PUBLISHERS-DOCUMENT.PDF

The rivalry between Mar Nestorius and Cyril of Alexandria resulted in the excommunication of the former in the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D Link . Persecution of Nestorius followers was magnified which resulted in many leaving the Roman territories and into the Persian. In Edessa (Urhai) they build one of the best renown theological school, and with it their influence on the Church of the East grew. While the Church of the East never officially adopted the Nestorian teachings, however, Rome considered it “Nestorian”, hence, a “heretical” church that’s worth “cleansing”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Church_of_the_East#Assyrian_Church_of_the_East_and_Nestorianism

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_East#Nestorianism

Nestorius himself wasn’t even a Nestorian the way people would think to do from reading the average Latin inspired book.
 
Since the joint Christological Declaration of 1994, using the term Nestorian to describe the Church of the East would be incorrect as mentioned above. It is also considered very derogatory.

As far as unity, Louis Raphael I Sako has extended an olive branch to the Church of the East. He is willing to resign his position and unite under the title, “Church of the East” as long as they are in union with Rome.

The situation is complicated due to three factors - ethnicity, nationalism, and spiritual truth. Basically, the Church of the East holds the fullness of ethnic truth. But, they only hold partial spiritual and ecclesiastical truth. Portions of the Church of the East are letting nationalism rule over every decision. The Chaldean Church possesses the fullness of spiritual and ecclesiastical truth, but not ethnic truth.
 
I’m not particularly interested in involving myself in this thread, but I will make a few comments.
Since the joint Christological Declaration of 1994, using the term Nestorian to describe the Church of the East would be incorrect as mentioned above. It is also considered very derogatory.
It seems to me use of that term was incorrect (not to mention derogatory) prior to the joint declaration.
Basically, the Church of the East holds the fullness of ethnic truth. But, they only hold partial spiritual and ecclesiastical truth. Portions of the Church of the East are letting nationalism rule over every decision. The Chaldean Church possesses the fullness of spiritual and ecclesiastical truth, but not ethnic truth.
The meaning of “ethnic truth” is quite unclear. The ACoE and the Chaldean Church share a common lineage.

Perhaps I’m missing something, but to say that the ACoE holds “partial spiritual truth” seems to fly in the face of the above mentioned joint declaration.

How “nationalism rules over every decision” bears further clarification. And, while I suspect I know the answer, the term “ecclesiactical truth” does as well.
 
I’m not particularly interested in involving myself in this thread, but I will make a few comments.

It seems to me use of that term was incorrect (not to mention derogatory) prior to the joint declaration.

The meaning of “ethnic truth” is quite unclear. The ACoE and the Chaldean Church share a common lineage.

Perhaps I’m missing something, but to say that the ACoE holds “partial spiritual truth” seems to fly in the face of the above mentioned joint declaration.

How “nationalism rules over every decision” bears further clarification. And, while I suspect I know the answer, the term “ecclesiactical truth” does as well.
  1. Technically, the Nestorian heresy is considered a “misunderstanding” between the churches. Church of the East initially deemed being Nestorian as a positive after all, Nestorius is a saint within their church. Church of the East didn’t realize the stigma of the term until later on.
  2. I’m going to oversimplify this - in regard to ethnic truth - there is a small vocal segment of the Chaldean Catholic Church that believe themselves to be descendents of the ancient Chaldeans because of the church’s name. There is absolutely no historical connection between the Chaldean Church and the ancient Chaldean people. The Chaldean name was appropriated by the Vatican in order to make it easier to identify those Christians in the the region who were not in union with Rome. There are individuals within the church who push this Chaldean identity and division for the sake of monetary gain. The Church of the East acknowledges their Assyrian heritage. Ethnically, both churches have their roots with the Assyrian people. I am part Assyrian. This is one of the major reasons why Sako is willing to forsake the Chaldean name and his title for the sake of unity. Because of persecution (ISIS and so forth), the Assyrian people in diaspora are on the verge of extinction and can’t afford division. Spiritual truth is in reference to their not being in union with Rome and the rejection of various doctrines and councils.
If you want to delve into the ethnic debate see:
facebook.com/pages/Assyria/111581612210294?fref=ts

“Before I became a priest I was an Assyrian, before I became a bishop I was an Assyrian, I am an Assyrian today, tomorrow, forever, and I am proud of it.” Source: Mar Raphael J Bidawid, Patriarch of the Chaldean Catholic Church, 1974.

“I personally think that these different names serve to add confusion. The original name of our Church was the ‘Church of the East’ … When a portion of the Church of the East became Catholic in the 17th Century, the name given was ‘Chaldean’ based on the Magi kings who were believed by some to have come from what once had been the land of the Chaldean, to Bethlehem. The name ‘Chaldean’ does not represent an ethnicity, just a church… We have to separate what is ethnicity and what is religion… I myself, my sect is Chaldean, but ethnically, I am Assyrian.” Source: Mar Raphael J Bidawid, Patriarch of the Chaldean Catholic Church, 2003.

“The Portuguese found an Assyrian Church in India in Malabar in the 16th century. It was reunited with Rome in 1599 and strongly Latinized. In 1830 a Catholic patriarch, called “Chaldean” was created in Mesopotamia, so there now are some Assyrians in union with Rome.” Source: The Holy Spirit: Eastern Christian Traditions, by Stanley M. Burgess, Hendrickson Publishers Inc., 1989.

“Before the rise of Islam the Syrian Christian Church [Assyrian] had split into several communities. There was first the East Syrian Church or the Church of the East. This communion, established in the late second century, claims uninterrupted descent in its teachings, liturgy, consecration and tradition from the time the Edessene King Abgar allegedly wrote to Christ asking him to relieve him of an incurable disease and Christ promised to send him one of his disciples after his ascension. This is the church erroneously called Nestorian, after the Cilician Nestorius, whom it antedates by about two and a half centuries. The term Nestorian was applied to it at a late date by Roman Catholics to convey the stigma of heresy in contradistinction to those of its members who joined the Catholic Church as Uniats and received the name Chaldeans.” Source: History of Syria (Including Lebanon and Palestine) by Professor Philip Hitti (Professor of Semitic Literature at Princeton University), Macmillan and Co., Ltd, 1957.
 
  1. I’m going to oversimplify this - in regard to ethnic truth - there is a small vocal segment of the Chaldean Catholic Church that believe themselves to be descendents of the ancient Chaldeans because of the church’s name. There is absolutely no historical connection between the Chaldean Church and the ancient Chaldean people. The Chaldean name was appropriated by the Vatican in order to make it easier to identify those Christians in the the region who were not in union with Rome. There are individuals within the church who push this Chaldean identity and division for the sake of monetary gain. The Church of the East acknowledges their Assyrian heritage. Ethnically, both churches have their roots with the Assyrian people. I am part Assyrian. This is one of the major reasons why Sako is willing to forsake the Chaldean name and his title for the sake of unity. Because of persecution (ISIS and so forth), the Assyrian people in diaspora are on the verge of extinction and can’t afford division.
I believe that Rome applied the term “Chaldean” to distinguish those who came into union with Rome. The term itself, at least as it was used in the 16th century, referred not to ethnicity but to the language. It was quite common for a good many years to refer to East Syriac/Aramaic language as Chaldean. One still encounters it in some old lexicons.
Spiritual truth is in reference to their not being in union with Rome and the rejection of various doctrines and councils.
That’s what I expected to hear.
 
Since the joint Christological Declaration of 1994, using the term Nestorian to describe the Church of the East would be incorrect as mentioned above. It is also considered very derogatory.

As far as unity, Louis Raphael I Sako has extended an olive branch to the Church of the East. He is willing to resign his position and unite under the title, “Church of the East” as long as they are in union with Rome.

The situation is complicated due to three factors - ethnicity, nationalism, and spiritual truth. Basically, the Church of the East holds the fullness of ethnic truth. But, they only hold partial spiritual and ecclesiastical truth. Portions of the Church of the East are letting nationalism rule over every decision. The Chaldean Church possesses the fullness of spiritual and ecclesiastical truth, but not ethnic truth.
FYI, the “offer” was not accepted last week. There is a statement out from His Holiness.
 
I believe that Rome applied the term “Chaldean” to distinguish those who came into union with Rome. The term itself, at least as it was used in the 16th century, referred not to ethnicity but to the language. It was quite common for a good many years to refer to East Syriac/Aramaic language as Chaldean. One still encounters it in some old lexicons.
Yes, you are correct about the term. I worded that sentence poorly. It’s been a long day.
 
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