Women servers at the tridentine mass

[5Loaves]

Welcome to the CAF.

Each of your posts here expresses a considerable discomfort with the orthodox teachings of the Catholic Church. I’d encourage you to consider establishing a relationship with a spiritual father or mother who is grounded in these teachings so you could have spiritual direction on this path. As you yourself are predicting you will not be able to be a good and faithful servant within the Church if you are at odds with these numerous teachings and traditions of the Church.

i just feel oppressed and trapped - the tridentine mass is for me the best expression of catholic worship, yet i will only be able to take part in it as a member of the congregation. its all just rather frustrating to think of joining a church where there is no place for me in the future

Understanding more about the Mass, including the role of “the people” would be helpful. There is nothing “only” about assisting at Holy Mass, “assisting” being the verb for the role of the folks in the pews.

thanks for your suggestions, but im not a particular fan of children (which is why i dont want children myself) so i think teaching them would be a bad idea. im not the motherly type!

Someone brought up NFP for another purpose, but I’d also wonder are you ready to put your fertility into the will of God? This question can be validly asked even if you are postmenopausal or not presently married. Do you understand and accept the Church’s teachings about marriage? (FYI I had a very similar attitude to yours in my 20s. The Holy Spirit has thankfully never given up on me, tho I’ve sometimes given up on myself. )

Like marriage, coming into the Church means coming into this Church. People often marry someone in hopes that over time that person will change the things that are troublesome, but which they choose to accept because they’re so “in love”, and usually so sure will change. The other person very rarely changes and over time the irritants that were always there become more and more difficult to just accept.

i guess i will see what the church has in store for me in the future when i am finally allowed to join, but i do feel that the catholic church would be perfect for me if only i was a man!

Hmmm, I’m sure there are some men out there who can attest to the challenges they have experienced in the Church.

Are you familiar with JP2’s teachings of the Theology of the Body? Fr. Loya in his teachings on TOB talks about the “H” zone-- the Honesty zone. The honesty about who we are which in written in our very bodies. Embracing your perfect reflection of the image of GOD within your authentic femininity is the path to an honest happiness, not striving to take on elements of the other half of the human family.

I would venture to say that many or most of us in the Church have certain aspects of teachings which are difficult for us. We are called to continue to strive to understand why these teaching are there and how they do truly assist us in our own theosis. This has nothing to do with checking our minds at the door and everything to do with being true to who we were created to be.

As we are in the final prefeast days anticipating the Nativity of our Lord and Savior Christ God may we all be reflecting on the Mother of God who gave her fiat when confronted with a thoroughly perplexing call. “True Theotokos, we magnify you!”

 

[IntegraCatholic]

Or there is the biblical notion that woman is for the sake of man.

“The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. For the man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man.” (I Cor. xi. 7-9.)

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Girl altar boys are one of the worst liturgical abuses out there . . .

You are mistaken here. If the Church allows for it it can not be a liturgical abuse.

 

[5Loaves]

Or there is the biblical notion that woman is for the sake of man.

“The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. For the man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man.” (I Cor. xi. 7-9.)

I don’t know what that has to do with the OP but this bit of proof texting does not represent an accurate understanding of the teaching of the Catholic Church on the roles of persons male and female.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

I don’t know what that has to do with the OP but this bit of proof texting does not represent an accurate understanding of the teaching of the Catholic Church on the roles of persons male and female.

Because something doesn’t agree with your notion of the roles of the sexes (or with theology of the body) doesn’t make it an inaccurate understanding of the Catholic Church.

 

[laszlo]

Traditionally being altar server were the first step toward the priesthood, and the group collected boys about up to age 12 or 14. This is the age when boys and girls like to be grouping separately, boys do not want to be look as sissy. Allowing altar girls practically scared away the boys Th time is too short yet, but I have so doubt that the present altar girls will be the future mothers, who will push their boys toward the priesthood (the female priesthood is aainst the solid Catholic teaching)

In particular cases there were altar girls in the good old times too, in convents (were male other than the priest could not enter) and in the all girl Catholic schools where the presence of the would be distracting. There were rules against it, but on the good old times people worshiped God, honored the authority, and believed that the rules are to force us to ask for permission if we want to act otherwise.

So if the Original Poster want to be female altar server, she

• must convince a priest about the usufulness of her wish, and prove that it brings more benefit than harm
• the priest must ask his Ordinary for permission (at this moment the Extraordinary Form should not import things from the Ordinary Form)
• the ordinary convinced about the benefits of the female altar servers on the TLM must give a permission

The Catholic Church is hierarchy, not democracy.

 

[Brendan]

When Pope Benedict issued the Motu Proprio, one of the instructions was that the rubrics for the 1962 Missal be used without alteration.

The rubrics for the 1962 Mass use the masculine in regards to the altar servers, so it would be difficult to justifiy using female altar servers.

 

[m134e5]

ok, so maybe i could be a bit more humble. but it does annoy me that one of the things i am good at (leading rituals and organising liturgy) is the one thing im denied.

and as for the catholic church, the real presence in the eucharist is one of the things keeping me in the church(nowhere else has it, even those places that claim to), otherwise i would probably stray to the anglican church or something similar. i just feel oppressed and trapped - the tridentine mass is for me the best expression of catholic worship, yet i will only be able to take part in it as a member of the congregation. its all just rather frustrating to think of joining a church where there is no place for me in the future

You can be a catechist, you can be a sacristan, you can read at Mass, you can help with the music, and many other ways you can help around the parish. The only thing you cannot do is preside as an ordained clergyman of the Catholic Church. Your gifts are certainly needed in the Church, and God has an important plan for your life where you’ll be able to use your gifts and talents- but the priesthood isn’t a part of that plan.

 

[Jenny_M]

OP, what do you think about Rose27’s post?

Dear curumba13,

It is wonderful that you feel called the One Holy and Catholic and Apostolic Church. I too am in the process of converting (from Atheism) and love the TLM. My approach to things tends to be intellectual which is one reason why I think I like the Latin Mass, so many more layers of meaning to unravel. I am also very pro-woman, although I avoid the word feminist because of its association with very anti-woman things like abortion, and so I thought I might share with you some of what I have come to understand about why the Church has a male only priesthood and why male only servers might be a better option.

If we assume that the Catholic Church truly is what it says it is, and the Pope truly is who he says he is, then we must accept that it is God who does not want woman to be priests, not just a bunch of old dudes with outdated opinions. But how can this be? Obviously God is not sexist, but He does fully understand human nature and I think that His prohibition has more to do with a “defect” in men then any that lack of holiness in woman.

When we look at anthropology we see that in all cultures at all times there has been a “division of labor.” Some tasks were only for woman, some only for men. Cultures do not come from nowhere but develop in response to human needs. Some needs are particular to the environment a people live in, like warm clothing in cold climates, or medicine for snake bites in the tropics, but other needs are universal and we see the same adaptations again and again. These things we can take to be basic human truths since they occur everywhere we are. So what is the basic human truth that leads to the division of labor? (Please don’t be offended guys)…Men are lazy.

They become disengaged far more easily than woman. When traditional cultures are altered by contact with modern conveniences and monetary systems the inevitable outcome is that the men feel less important and powerful, and not knowing how to deal with those feelings end up just leaving. You end up with whole villages of nothing but woman and children which of course is not healthy for a strong and moral community. Men need to have roles which only they can perform or they feel unneeded. I think God knows this.

I think He knows that if woman were allowed to be priests men would become even more removed from religion then they already are. Woman will show up for Christ one way or another (consider who stayed at the foot of the cross and who ran away and hid behind a locked door). Accepting an all male priesthood might feel like a sacrifice but it is one we woman can make as a gesture of charity to men who, for whatever reason, seem to need a little more encouragement in their faith. Each gender has its strengths and weaknesses and, although we are of course all individuals, to pretend that we are really the same is not supported by science or history.

I hope that helps.

 

[curumba13]

Rose27 thankyou for your post, i guess it has given me another perspective on things that i didnt see before. although it does still fall into the trap of there being certain jobs for men and certain jobs for women, whereas ive never fit into the traditional mold for that (im a bit of a tomboy).

Also, with regards having children, I am fully aware of the CC’s teaching, and the value it places on motherhood, although i am only 25 i have never wanted children and i do not want to get married (i was in a relationship with a bloke who i lived with for 2 1/2 years although that ended a long time before i came to the church). So i have experienced an aspect of married life (including looking after young children which were his) and i prefer to be single (which is a valid vocation in the church).

 

[Mumbles140]

Also, with regards having children, I am fully aware of the CC’s teaching, and the value it places on motherhood, although i am only 25 i have never wanted children and i do not want to get married (i was in a relationship with a bloke who i lived with for 2 1/2 years although that ended a long time before i came to the church). So i have experienced an aspect of married life (including looking after young children which were his) and i prefer to be single (which is a valid vocation in the church).

You are correct - that is a perfectly valid vocation in the Church. However, please don’t confuse the 30 months you spent living with some ‘bloke’ as anything like marriage. A recent study came out in the US that followed couples over a 10-year period. They found that couples who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce, with the largest cause being that they didn’t think anything would change.

You have been brought to the Church - your life has started anew in Christ, so keep an open mind, pray that God will reveal part of His plan to lead you to your vocation, and take up a special commitment to the Blessed Virgin Mary, that she may carry your prayers and desires to her most holy son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Rose27]

Rose27 thankyou for your post, i guess it has given me another perspective on things that i didnt see before. although it does still fall into the trap of there being certain jobs for men and certain jobs for women, whereas ive never fit into the traditional mold for that (im a bit of a tomboy)

I wonder about that term, tomboy, and what you mean by it. You said earlier that you think the Church only allows woman to be wives, mothers and nuns, but I don’t think that is true. The role of single professional is very much open to woman. The contributions of such woman are in fact vital to the Church. They can offer their time and skills and financial support in ways that married woman are unable to because of their family responsibilities, and they can be a testimony of faith to the world in a way nuns cannot be either because they are cloistered or because people see nuns as some special class of person they can’t relate to. I am concerned that tomboyness as you are expressing it is really a sub-conscious internalized sexism.

Woman can’t offer the Holy Sacrifice of Mass, and men can’t offer their bodies as a temple of sacrifice for the creation of life. The fact that you don’t want to be a mother, which is fine, doesn’t mean that you get to be a priest anymore than a man who doesn’t want to be a priest gets to be pregnant. I think you might need to take a look at why you feel this need to do what the boys are doing. I have seen quite often that women who have this desire are suffering from a lack of respect for their God given femininity. Our womanhood is powerful and beautiful, and it can express itself in so many ways but it can’t be expressed by trying to become men.

 

[curumba13]

hi rose27

i appreciate what you are trying to say, but to be honest ive never really felt feminine at all really, and so i dont see it as something that God has given to me. The fact that i am a ‘tomboy’ is because ive always been interested in the jobs that men and boys get to do, and have always felt much more comfortable in the company of men than women.

And i do think that the church, especially in the past, looks down on women who choose to remain single but who dont enter religious life. a while back i had a long conversation with an sspx priest about this, and he seemed almost shocked that i wanted to never have children and to remain single, like i was going against gods plan for my life or something.

in many ways i guess i have never accepted my femininity because i have never wanted it, nor have i ever desired it at all. i have always had the mindset of a man, but it just seems like an accident that i am a woman. dont get me wrong, im not planning on having a sex change or anything, but i just question the status quo in the church. and what is worse is that because i love the more traditional forms of worship, the people at those kinds of mass often have even more biased views of women and their roles, which is why i feel stuck!

 

[Rose27]

Well an sspx priest might not be the best spiritual resource for you. Someone who has chosen to go against the magisterium of the Church to hold on to traditions he apparently thinks are more important than unity and submission to the authority of St Peter’s successor is probably holding on to a lot of ideas that are not really Church teaching. In truth this is not limited to separatists and goes both ways. I have been mocked by a “progressive” priest for choosing to follow the tradition of head covering in church. We don’t need to let these people get to us. If you know that neither married nor religious life is for you than staying a single laity the right path.

I am still, however, concerned that you are internalizing sexism. Your rejection of your femininity makes me think that you are defining it in a way that is limiting you. As a woman you have femininity whether or not you realize it. Any desire you have to care for and serve others is part of that femininity. Just as men’s desire for the same thing is part of their masculinity. They are complimentary but not equivalent. Don’t let men like that priest rob you of this source of strength by telling you that if your femininity doesn’t fit in his box that it doesn’t exist. It might be a good focus for prayer for you to better understand what your womanhood really is. Submission to the will of God is the only real freedom, the only true liberty.

 

[jeanannemarie]

With all due charity to you, OP, perhaps you should research the sin of Pride. It should give you a better idea of the focus a Catholic is expected to have. Understanding Pride and all the sins which fall under that vice is quite overwhelming. Perhaps this can redirect your feelings of being left out or unable to participate. You only need new eyes to see new roles for yourself in the future and Our Lord will be most happy to show you the way if you ask. This is not offered to offend you, but only in hopes that you will be able to reframe your thinking.