Word was Real God?

[pohandes]

How can we prove that in John1:1, word was the real God?

 

[White_Tree]

Well, the verse says, “and the Word was God,” so that seems pretty explicit.

What are the alternatives that you are thinking of? And since it seems that the verse itself is insufficient for you, what sort of “proof” are you imagining would suffice here? Could you elaborate a little?

 

[pohandes]

Non-God beings some times called “god” in the Bible.

For example, Jews called gods in Bible:
I said, "You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High. (Psalm 82:6)

Another example:
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Many commentaries say “The god of this age” in this text, is the devil.

So we need to be sure that “God” in John1:1 means the real God.

 

[whatistrue]

Well, since that book starts with “In the beginning”, like Genesis does, I would think that is a strong clue. I mean what else was in existence in the beginning other than God?

 

[White_Tree]

Well, two verses down it says,

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. – John 1:3

So the God it’s describing here is the Creator. Is that who you think the real God is?

 

[pohandes]

Well, since that book starts with “In the beginning”, like Genesis does, I would think that is a strong clue

Beginning in Genesis is the beginning of creation. If something exists in the beginning of creation, it does not mean that it is god.

I mean what else was in existence in the beginning other than God?

You are right. if beginning means “eternity”, But we need a proof for this.

So the God it’s describing here is the Creator. Is that who you think the real God is?

This verse does not say “He made all things”, but says: “All things were made by him”. There is a possibility that: Word may be tool in creation. Let me, give you an example: When you illuminate a dark room with a light, you can say the dark room illuminated by a light, But it does not mean that the light is you.

 

[White_Tree]

This verse does not say “He made all things”, but says: “All things were made by him”. There is a possibility that: Word may be tool in creation. Let me, give you an example: When you illuminate a dark room with a light, you can say the dark room illuminated by a light, But it does not mean that the light is you.

It says the Word was God, though.

So what you’re imagining here is that the real God somehow used a false god as a tool in creation?

 

[whatistrue]

If something exists in the beginning of creation, it does not mean that it is god.

That’s a real stretch there. Again, what else could possibly exist in the beginning other than God?

if beginning means “eternity”,

Beginning means beginning. The start of all things other than God. I interpret that as the beginning of our Universe; the beginning of Time.

I really don’t understand how this could be clearer or require “proof”. God does not require or offer “proof”.

 

[Wesrock]

whatistrue:

Well, since that book starts with “In the beginning”, like Genesis does, I would think that is a strong clue

Beginning in Genesis is the beginning of creation. If something exists in the beginning of creation, it does not mean that it is god.

I mean what else was in existence in the beginning other than God?

You are right. if beginning means “eternity”, But we need a proof for this.

So the God it’s describing here is the Creator. Is that who you think the real God is?

This verse does not say “He made all things”, but says: “All things were made by him”. There is a possibility that: Word may be tool in creation. Let me, give you an example: When you illuminate a dark room with a light, you can say the dark room illuminated by a light, But it does not mean that the light is you.

Well, one, we have the authoritative apostolic tradition of the Church, which as Catholics is as valid for doctrine as Scripture.

Even regarding Scripture, it seems inappropriate to take the opening of John (essentially a Jewish midrash) and the several I AM statements as saying anything other than that Jesus is God, YHWH, the great I AM, in the flesh and moving among his people. The gospel even culminates in the declaration “My Lord and my God.”

 

[Wesrock]

all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

This verse itself demonstrates the eternity of the Logos, otherwise you are suggesting that this verse is false and that the Logos itself was “made” through the Logos, but the Logos can’t pre-exist itself to make itself. The only resolution is that he is eternal.

 

[pohandes]

It says the Word was God, though.

So what you’re imagining here is that the real God somehow used a false god as a tool in creation?

You are true. It says the word was God. The Question is: Does it mean the real God?

What is Logos in Greek philosophy? Some thing between God and creation.

That’s a real stretch there. Again, what else could possibly exist in the beginning other than God?

The Logos.

Beginning means beginning. The start of all things other than God. I interpret that as the beginning of our Universe; the beginning of Time.

OK. If it is so, why we must believe that he is God? He just existed in the start of all things other than God!

I really don’t understand how this could be clearer or require “proof”. God does not require or offer “proof”.

God does not, But human does.

Even regarding Scripture, it seems inappropriate to take the opening of John (essentially a Jewish midrash) and the several I AM statements as saying anything other than that Jesus is God, YHWH, the great I AM, in the flesh and moving among his people. The gospel even culminates in the declaration “My Lord and my God.”

I agree. But we must discuss about it in another page! Here we are talking about John1:1

all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

This verse itself demonstrates the eternity of the Logos, otherwise you are suggesting that this verse is false and that the Logos itself was “made” through the Logos, but the Logos can’t pre-exist itself to make itself. The only resolution is that he is eternal.

Sorry but I don’t understand what in this verse demonstrates the eternity of the Logos. explain please

 

[whatistrue]

What is Logos in Greek philosophy? Some thing between God and creation.

Don’t care about Greek philosophy here. Logos is simply the Greek word for “word” in this context. So the part of the chapter that reads “The Word was God” is the answer to your question. It is plain and straightforward.

whatistrue:

That’s a real stretch there. Again, what else could possibly exist in the beginning other than God?

The Logos.

Which is also God.

God does not, But human does.

Human may “want” proof, but God does not offer tailored to your misconceptions. So where does that leave you? That’s what faith is for.

Sorry but I don’t understand what in this verse demonstrates the eternity of the Logos. explain please

I don’t know how much plainer it could be. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

 

[pohandes]

Don’t care about Greek philosophy here. Logos is simply the Greek word for “word” in this context. So the part of the chapter that reads “The Word was God” is the answer to your question. It is plain and straightforward.

Saint John uses Logos as Greek Philosopher used it. We must consider why he uses this word. Why he does not use another word?

Which is also God.

Of Course is also God. So?

Human may “want” proof, but God does not offer tailored to your misconceptions. So where does that leave you? That’s what faith is for.

What is my misconceptions? Yes Faith does not need to “proof”. But some time we need proof to seek Faith.

I don’t know how much plainer it could be. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ”.

It is not plain as you think. Read verse 14: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us” (John1:14)

It is not possible for self-exist to become possible existence. God does not change! And he never lose his divinity, but according to this word, if word is real God, we must say: God changed to a creator.

 

[whatistrue]

Of Course is also God. So?

So that is exactly the answer to your question.

What is my misconceptions?

That you are entitled to a specific kind of proof for this or any other answer is the main misconception.

It is not possible for self-exist to become possible existence. God does not change! And he never lose his divinity, but according to this word, if word is real God, we must say: God changed to a creator.

None of this (other than “God does not change!”) makes any sense to me. Can you break it down or rephrase? For example, God didn’t change to a creator, God is and always was the Creator.

 

[pohandes]

So that is exactly the answer to your question.

I don’t think so.
You said “That’s a real stretch there. Again, what else could possibly exist in the beginning other than God?”
I said: “The Logos.”
You said: “Which is also God.”
And I asked: “so?”

That you are entitled to a specific kind of proof for this or any other answer is the main misconception.

No. I just need a good proof. nothing more.

None of this (other than “God does not change!”) makes any sense to me. Can you break it down or rephrase? For example, God didn’t change to a creator, God is and always was the Creator.

It is clear that it is a mistake. I wanted to type: “Creature” nor creator.

 

[Vico]

How can we prove that in John1:1, word was the real God?

Have you been talking with the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

 

[pohandes]

Have you been talking with the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

Nope. They say true Translation of this is: “and The word was a God.”

 

[whatistrue]

I don’t think so.

I cannot fathom why not. You agree that “the Logos” is God, so where is the “other than God” you speak of?

I just need

Exactly my point. You claim to “need” something that you are not entitled to.

It is clear that it is a mistake.

It was not clear at all, which is why I said it didn’t make sense. And no, God did not “change to a creature”, He Incarnated. Fully man and fully God.

 

[pohandes]

I cannot fathom why not. You agree that “the Logos” is God, so where is the “other than God” you speak of?

No. I am not sure that Logos is the God. because of that I made this question. and about “other than god”, I did not say it! you said.

Exactly my point. You claim to “need” something that you are not entitled to.

No. Just give me a good reason

It was not clear at all, which is why I said it didn’t make sense. And no, God did not “change to a creature”, He Incarnated. Fully man and fully God.

Incarnation is becoming the Flesh! What is the difference? John1:14, clearly says: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us”

 

[whatistrue]

I am not sure that Logos is the God.

Then why did you also say:

Of Course is also God. So?

?

No. Just give me a good reason

You have been given several, from different people. Accept or don’t, but your question has indeed been answered.

Muting thread now for the sake of my equilibrium.