Word within a Word

[DBT]

What happens in the presence of God is not an objective knowing but a recognition of what is self-evident that God is all ways present and loving.

I think language is failing us here.

Yes, contemplation inflames the will to the point the soul perceives God to be always present and always loving . . . but that’s only part of the story. There IS such a thing as objective knowing and I’ll simply state that there is nothing self-evident about it . . . as I hope I will be able to demonstrate through my grasping for the right words and teachings

What I “think” you refer to as “objective knowing” is actually a foundational teaching of the mystical Doctors of the Church. It’s called “self-knowledge” and it’s a principal fruit of contemplation . . . the enlightenment of our understanding. Without the gift of self-knowledge, contemplation is not transformational. And without transformation contemplation is nothing more than mere navel gazing.

There are so many types and ways of knowing that I should probably try and explain what I mean . . .

In the beginning we learn to seek Him by “unknowing” . . . that is, giving up our reliance on our thoughts, opinions and expectations of God and His ways for He is utterly beyond our ability to grasp with any construct of our mind.

And in actual contemplation itself we do not “know” Him in any way that can be percieved through our spiritual or bodily senses. In fact, if the rest is deep enough our sensory perception will be completely suspended . . . we are absorbed into Him in a manner of speaking. If we a thinking or peceving these notions of knowing at the time of prayer then we are not contemplating . . . we’re meditating. Maybe this is what you’re saying in your quote

But in the end, if our contemplation is transformational, He infuses us with an “actual knowledge” of His ways and mysteries as well as insight into our faults and shortcomings that were previously hidden to us . . . self-knowledge. As St. Teresa teaches, it’s like the “scales being removed from our eyes.” Again, we don’t perceive these truths during contemplation itself; they typically come to light as we go about our daily activities. This last point is a key teaching of St. Therese.

So this transformational knowing is the key to everything according to Sts. Teresa and John . . . and the pain and torment self-knowledge causes is the meaning behind the entire teaching of the “Dark Night.” In short, this new understanding of God and self is the catalyst that allows us to “see” (i.e. know) what must change. His on-going loving presence that you describe is the actual grace that allows us to do so.

So in the end what the Doctors teach us is that contemplation is not just a matter of the will being moved to love in ever deeper ways. It also inflames the intellect with the self-knowledge to see what must change and the memory to seek His habitual presence in all our thoughts, words and actions. And that, in a nutshell, is how all the faculties of the soul are transformed in His light.

Perhaps we are saying the same thing?

Dave

 

[soma]

DBT, Thank you for taking the time to explain and go deeper in the explanation. I agree with everything you said.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well reading what Soma has written so far, it appears to me s/he is saying the same thing as St. John of the Cross, but using different words.

Enlightenment of the Soul, is self-knowledge.

The experience of Christ in the center of the soul, is contemplation, but there are levels of contemplation. The experience is from the transforming grace given to us by God, but its really the beginning stages of contemplation, not infused contemplation, where transformation is near or at its end, and the soul then goes into the Dark Night.

We must also check ourselves and not place desires on the experience, over the one who is giving us the experience,… God.

One of the problems that many people have, is getting hung on words that look like they’re outside of Catholic teaching. Often the words mean the same thing and can even be found in the writings of the Catholic Spiritual masters.

Anyway, Soma, its interesting reading your post. Thanks for posting.

God Bless
Jim

 

[soma]

Thank you, I hope to read more of the Catholic masters. They have given inspiration to many. I went to Catholic school k-12 and the mystics gave me refuge in their writings.

 

[DBT]

Well reading what Soma has written so far, it appears to me s/he is saying the same thing as St. John of the Cross, but using different words.

I would agree with that . . . up to a point.

What has brought me back time and again to this thread is the “appearance” of self-reliance in these matters . . . which is very un-Carmelite. I might be completely wrong about what I see and I admit that freely but I say it to Soma from the concern of one brother in Christ to another.

You see I know of what I speak from the hard knocks of personal experience. There was a time when God gave me all kinds of inner lights. At the time I was not well versed in St. John so I decided to go it alone thinking I had it all under control. I didn’t. What I didn’t see at the time was that I was taking a kind of quiet satisfaction from these communications. And this is the most subtle and devious kind of pride there is . . . the kind we can’t see but that’s staring us right in the face.

All the while these communications were coming I was given the “self-knowledge” they were being given because I was weak and needed them to seek Him in a deeper and more meaningful way. I also “knew” that once I was strong enough they would be taken away because they would no longer be needed. What I didn’t know was that it was up to me to make that transition happen.

It took one very helpful poster right here on these very forums to point out the specific teaching of St. John that I must renounce my desire for these communications. Once I did, the communications ceased . . . and my interior life blossomed in ways I never would have imagined. Had I continued to cling to those old quiet satisfactions no doubt I would have remained in a very deep rut . . . neither moving forward or backward . . . and oblivious to it all. What the spiritual life teaches, if we’re fortunate enough to listen, is that we have an almost limitless supply of self-deception when we go it alone.

So I’m very grateful for the advice I was given and ever since that day I look to the Carmelite Doctors as the definative source to explain all things spiritual. And through my posts I’m simply trying to re-pay that favor . . . if not to Soma then to someone else.

Dave.

 

[InLight247]

Well reading what Soma has written so far, it appears to me s/he is saying the same thing as St. John of the Cross, but using different words.

I don’t get it. Maybe my understanding of St. John is too shallow.
I am just not able to relate what I read in OP with St. John’s saying.

But I do appreciate and understand what Dave explained, it always helps.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Dave,

What has brought me back time and again to this thread is the “appearance” of self-reliance in these matters . . . which is very un-Carmelite.

I don’t think Soma is saying that the grace we receive is of our own doing, but rather, God’s.

However, I also think Soma is saying that to receive God’s grace, we must actively cooperate with God, by being open to Contemplation.

I may be interpreting what Soma has said here, but this is how I understand it.

Jim

 

[soma]

Jim, I agree exactly that grace comes to us from God.

Yes, we Christians attribute to God externally, but we forget that God is also inside us. He is an on looker and an in looker, He sees all in and through us. If we give God time in silence, we can feel His presence. He moves in mysterious ways. I know some want to see God with their eyes as they see a statue, to love Him as they love an object and profit from Him externally, but God is behind and in the everyone. He manifests as energy, as life, as beauty, as thought, as conscience, and as love. God’s center is everywhere seeing everything from the inside and outside. People say they want to find God, but they are looking for Him with their eyes as if God is lost, when God is inside doing the looking. He is the search loving, hoping and waiting, speaking to all of us through what happens to us each moment by moment because He sees what we are seeing externally and internally.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

In his Canticle, The Living Flame of Love, St. John of the Cross wrote;

12.The soul’s center is God. When it has reached God with all the capacity of its being and the strength of its operation and inclination, it will have attained its final and deepest center in God, it will know, love, and enjoy God with all its might. When it has not reached this point (as happens in this mortal life, in which the soul cannot reach God with all its strength, even though in its center - which is God through grace and his self-communication to it), it still has movement and strength for advancing further and is not satisfied. Although it is in its center, it is not yet in its deepest center, for it can go deeper in God.

1. It is noteworthy, then, that love is the inclination, strength, and power for the soul in making its way to God, for love unites it with God. The more degrees of love it has, the more deeply it enters into God and centers itself in him. We can say that there are as many centers in God possible to the soul, each one deeper than the other, as there are degrees of love of God possible to it. A stronger love is a more unitive love, and we can understand in this manner the many mansions the Son of God declared were in his Father’s house [Jn. 14:2].

Hence, for the soul to be in its center - which is God, as we have said - it is sufficient for it to possess one degree of love, for by one degree alone it is united with him through grace. Should it have two degrees, it becomes united and concentrated in God in another, deeper center. Should it reach three, it centers itself in a third. But once it has attained the final degree, God’s love has arrived at wounding the soul in its ultimate and deepest center, which is to illuminate and transform it in its whole being, power, and strength, and according to its capacity, until it appears to be God.

When light shines on a clean and pure crystal, we find that the more intense the degree of light, the more light the crystal has concentrated within it and the brighter it becomes; it can become so brilliant from the abundance of light received that it seems to be all light. And then the crystal is undistinguishable from the light, since it is illumined according to its full capacity, which is to appear to be light.

Jim

 

[soma]

Jim, Thank you for the Canticle article you posted. What was said is very powerful.