Words used in the Liturgy, who is "it"?

[Daniel_J]

If the Mass is being revised then I want to do some editing myself.

Where do I apply ?

For example…

Let us study some Thomist Theology.

Did you know that the “Will” of God is of His essence ?

We can say that “God’s Will is Himself” in Essence, “The Will of God is God”. We understand God’s Will as Love, the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity.

This is interesting because if we look to Scripture where Jesus mentions the “Will” of God we find that Christ is a good ol’ Thomist because in essence He used the critical phrasing.

When Jesus gave the “Our Father” prayer He said: ** "Thy Will(definite article) be done on earth, as in heaven…**

My point her is that Jesus did not call the Father’s Will “it”.

In every Mass said in English we say: “…thy will be done on earth as ** it** is in heaven…”

This pesky little pronoun seems to creep into the most unexpected places. (Please see the post about the “Words of Consecration”)

Anyhow, there’s more.

In the “Glory Be” prayer we say:

** Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as “it” was in the beginning…"**

Language !

Question: ‘What pre-existed "the beginning?’

Answer: “it”.

This is terrible. We need to say, “…as was in the beginning”.

dj

 

[Servulus]

Linguistically, there’s not an insurmountable proiblem with “it” in these instances if we consider that the impersonal pronoun refers to the condition or situation described in the antecedent clause, since hallowing the name of the Father and giving glory to the three Persons of the Trinity are situations that eternally exist in Heaven. To illustrate that, let’s substitute “the situation” for “it” in each instance:

“…Thy will be done on earth as the situation is in Heaven.” and
“…as the situation was in the beginning, is now…”

Hope that helps.

 

[Daniel_J]

Great ! Thanks, I will think of it this way from now on. (was that a pun? oops)

Ironic how the same idea has occurred in last weeks Gospel.Matt18
** “Again, amen, I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about any-“thing”, …”“it”" shall be granted…"**

Neat ! I’m thinking, it’s e-bay time(!) …like the kid in my CCD class. I asked what they would ask of God and this child said “I want a gameboy.”

So, anyhow, when I got home I looked up the passage and the orig. Greek text indicated “thing” to be an affair, i.e. (business) matter and “granted” is verb meaning “done” hence as yesterday’s first reading stated “idolitry” (1Cor.10:14) aside, “things” not-withstanding, God promises to “do” for us.

** “Again, amen, I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about any matter, for which ye are to pray, this shall be done for them by my Father which is in heaven…”**
dj

 

[japhy]

When Jesus gave the “Our Father” prayer He said: ** "Thy Will(definite article) be done on earth, as in heaven…**

My point her is that Jesus did not call the Father’s Will “it”.

Right; even in the Latin, it simply says Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra (“Your will be done, as in heaven also on earth”). No additional verb or noun. Still, I do not think the redundancy found in the English translation harms our faith (lex credendi lex orandi). Surely, we can’t imagine the Will of God to be something outside of Himself, can we?

In the “Glory Be” prayer we say:

** Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as “it” was in the beginning…"**

I interpret the “it” to be referring to the glory. Glory be to You, as it [glory] was in the beginning, etc. Or, if you were to see the two halves of the Glory Be as separate entities, perhaps it just means “as the state of affairs was (with God) in the beginning, is now, etc.”

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Thomistic theology aside, when we do God’s will ‘we do it’, not ‘we do Him’. Jesus taught us to pray in ordinary language. God’s permissive will allows us to do evil. But God desires that we do good. So we pray that on the earth all of us to whom God has given free will will do the things that He wills.

BTW, the prayer was translated into Latin from whatever Jesus spoke. So we are translating a translation.

 

[zab]

I agree with japhy,
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit as (glory) was in the beginning, as (glory) is now and (glory) ever will be forever and ever. Amen

 

[Daniel_J]

I am glad we are having this discussion.

I like understanding the words of these prayers in a better manner.

We do however need to continue vigilance regarding the use of the word “it” as this pronoun can de-personalize.

For example: have you ever heard a pregnant mom refer to her baby as “it” ?

Another example is Acts 8:16 as it translates in the New American Bible

** “15who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit,
16
for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 5
17”**

oops