Works salvation - the real question?

[mikeledes]

Romans 2:6-7

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

John 5:28-29

**Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. **

Galatians 6:7-10

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Revelation 2:26

26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations

1 Timothy 6:17-19

17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. 18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Matthew 25:31-36

**31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ **

The word of God is pretty clear on this issue. We are made righteous before God by His grace and become a new creation, created to do good works. However, we are obligated to live a life according to the Law of Christ, namely, love and will be held accountable for what we do with the gifts God has given us.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

Sandusky, a low bow of greeting right into your direction O such an one! You have given a good reply in your posting.

You have stated “Is it your opinion that your approved, Catholic Bible errs in its translation of the verse? Pay attention to the parallelism in Jn 3:36” (end quote)

Jn 3:36(a) is descriptive of one who is truly born again / saved. This one has come into the good of a finished work by the Christ of God on Calvary. Consequently, the one who has taken God at His Word regarding His Son is that one who has eternal live.

Jn 3:36(b) is the one who is disobedient (unpersuasive / not allowing oneself to be persuaded / not to comply with / refuse or withhold belief in) and consequently this one does not have eternal life. Rather, this one has the wrath of God hanging over his head.

To suggest (or insist) that one must lead an obedient life for an entrance into God’s heaven is erroneous. Life eternal does not come through Catholicism / Protestantism, but rather is based upon the finished work of Christ, i.e. 1Tim 2:6 and man comes into the good of it by a genuine repentance, Acts 3:19 & faith in a crucified and resurrected Christ, Jn 3:36.

An acid test to see who has life can be seen in this …

1. those who are leaning on what they do or fail to do (religion / works etc) do not know and will have to admit that they do not know for sure they have everlasting life. Everlasting life by the way is not something one has for today and also might loose today.
2. those who have genuinely abandoned their religion / works / efforts and have solely trusted the Lord’s Christ as Saviour are those who know they have eternal life … a life that only God can give and the receiving individual cannot lose.

Somewhat for to consider …

(For all those who cannot see this posting, would you be so kind as to report that to me immediately)

A man of like-Spirit.

[SIGN]Amen![/SIGN]

 

[Jerry-Jet]

We are gracefully saved by faith when it continues through and is completed by God Willed Works!

No works are necessary to complete faith if it is God’s will that a person receives faith immediately prior to death.

 

[LumberGumRubber]

We are gracefully saved by faith when it continues through and is completed by God Willed Works!
No works are necessary to complete faith if it is God’s will that a person receives faith immediately prior to death.

This souns ok when first looked at … but then again it appears that faith here might be faith in my faith …

Faith in & of itself saves nothing (or is that no one) … rather is it faith placed intitally in the right object … or better, it is the object of ones’ faith that actually saves.
It might be best to state “the evidence of genuine faith will manifest itself by works” … i.e. “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith ***by ***my works” … thus, it is not “faith and works” that saves, but rather “faith ***that ***works” … James 2:18.

Your second paragraph again purports the idea again that it is “faith AND works” … which of course is a faulty premise of the Catholic church.
As with the “malafactor” on the cross who went immediately into paradise with Christ, there would be no time to manifest his salvation by works … it was manifested by his words …!

Who in the crowds would have thought either one of these two malefactors (evil doers) would have gone immediately into the presence of God? Nay, but from the Divine perspective, Christ knew it … and the thief would have known it, though probably not feeling it.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

So say it again. Say “Works salvation is…” and complete the sentence. And I bet what you say won’t be what the Church teaches.

It’s the question I’m asking now.

Oh? Can grace save without faith?

IIRC, the answer is - Yes Grace is everything in our salvation - our response is,*** in a sense***, an irrelevance. That is, God would still be God, would still be Who He is, even if no creature,sinful or not, existed. His acts are not dependent on creatures - it’s the other way about. What we call salvation is His act as encountered in a particular way by beings of a particular kind: somewhat as the sun is the same thing for a man, an insect & a swamp: but they, being different, encounter it differently. God is nothing but God - His creatures receive Him differently, because they differ; His eternal gracious act is unchanging, yet is variously received by creatures. Mushrooms, men & angels all need God - but not in identical ways.​

Grace is…gratuitous. It does not depend on our response, but solely on God. It comes to us totally free, in all senses possible. IOW - it is absolutely unconditional. Faith is not a condition of receiving it - but a result of so doing. And this is in no sense “easy-believism” (There must be a more felicitous expression for what’s meant, than that…)

I believe that this issue is being treated contractually - instead of being considered in relation to God’s Love. Love is not something doled out in spoonfuls, but something given unconditionally. It acts paradoxically - & grace is paradoxical: God loved us, not because we loved Him, but because we did nothing of the sort. We are able to love Him, only because He loves us first, before we return love for Love. Love ignores the question “How much am I to love in order to count as loving ?” - it doesn’t think of self; it thinks of the one it loves. It looks out, to others - not in, to self.

Because obedience would typically (I won’t say always) require physical action, and a person may be prevented from that physical action. Thief on the cross, etc. But the vast majority of Christians are not thieves on crosses, and for the vast majority of Christians obedience is possible. So for Christians for whom obedience is possible, is it also a necessary component of their salvation?

See above - “If you love Me, keep My commandments”; or perhaps we should also translate, “If you love Me, you are keeping My commandments”. AFAICS, obedience is not ultimately different from love.​

The "Marrow Controversy" turned on this question of the conditionality, or unconditionality, of our coming to Christ: monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/MarrowControversy.html

 

[Atemi]

We are gracefully saved by faith when it continues through and is completed by God Willed Works!

How many and what kinds of God willed works complete faith?

Some?
A few?
Occasionally?
24/7?

…

 

[Church_Militant]

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Atemi: As many works as God wills for a person to have in his life.

Faith is not Instanteous. Faith is continual.

A state of Mortal sin is not instantaneous and a state of sancifying grace is not instanteous–they are both contrinual.

As continual as the “I Am” God that we woship.

When one dies in a state of sanctifying grace that sanctifying grace continues after death.

When onr dies in a state of mortal sin that state of mortal sin continues after death.

Why is Continuation impossible for people to understand?

Jesus didn’t die on the cross for Instances of sin–He died for the Continual state of sin that is against the continual state of God!

God is bigger than the linear and even the 3-D state of mind–even Einstein was capable of higher thinking than that!

If God is continual shouldn’t our theology be continual?

 

[Atemi]

Atemi: As many works as God wills for a person to have in his life.

Thank you for the honest answer. That means you do not know, which has been my position all this time.

The thing I find most interesting talking to so many Catholics is that so many of them believe that if they died this very day that they have done all the works God had willed for them up to this point in their lives.

They all seem to somehow magically know this.

Interesting.

…

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I don’t know about other Catholic but I would Never believe that I had done all the God Willed Works that God wanted me to do.

Didn’t Jesus say that after we had done all we could do that we should still ask for mercy asl unworthy servants?

And yes the answer is “I don’t know” and I make no apology for giving that answrer.

If I knew what my exact score was with God would I not be God myself?

Catholics worship a God that is Infinitely big to where where we stand with Him can not be reduced to something as simplistic as as Faith as an Instanteous Only one time event!

Now worshipping an Infinite God like that that cannot be reduced to something that we can control might not be as easy–it is however the truth!

The God of Faith as an Instanteous Only one time event is infinitely small–Satan likes a God that is that size!

 

[Atemi]

I don’t know about other Catholic but I would Never believe that I had done all the God Willed Works that God wanted me to do.

How much does that concern you that you may go to Hell if you died today?

And yes the answer is “I don’t know” and I make no apology for giving that answrer.

Nor should you make such an apology as it is one of the most honest answers I have ever received on this issue.

This is what I was taught as well by the RCC.

When someone asks you “what must I do to be saved?,” the correct and honest RC answer here is “I don’t know…try your best.”

I cannot find that anywhere in Scripture, however.

If I knew what my exact score was with God would I not be God myself?

The problem here is that you seem to believe there is a score you keep with God for your justification and salvation.

That is what I was taught too, unfortunately.

Catholics worship a God that is Infinitely big to where where we stand with Him can not be reduced to something as simplistic as as Faith as an Instanteous Only one time event!

Faith, can never be a “one time event.” Faith is present active participle faith.

If it is not, it is not faith…by definition.

…

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I am always concerned about whether or not i would go to hell today if I died and Obey Paul as he said in scripture to “Work out my salvation with fear and trembling”.

Why wouldn’t every christian do what the bible says? Why wouldn’t they Work it out? And why wouldn’t they tremble when they did it?

And why would we be told to tremble if Justification was by Faith Alone? If it were there would be no need for trembling and there certainly would be no need for working it out!

Can you find “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling” in the bible Atemi? Would you obey it and would it apply to you?

There is no score that I keep with God for my justification.

There is a score that God keeps–either you’re in a state of grace or you’re in a state of mortal sin–whichever state you’re in at death will be the state you remain in througout all eternity.

And no I do not know with absolute certainty what state I will be in when I die Atemi–no one does!

Faith does not necessarily continue–it can be interrupted at any time by Mortal sin!

And the fact that it can be interrupted by mortal sin does not negate that it could have been true faith at an earlier point in time!

The scriptures teach that Abraham on three different occasions was Justified and they also teach that it was the work of offering Isaac as a sacrifice as a Completion of faith that justified Abraham–not faith only!

Jesus Chose Judas and Judas Mortaly sinned.

When anyone Mortally sins and dies in that state then Jesus’ words about Judas are equally true about them–“It would have been better for that man if he had never been born”.

All sin is not the same. Some is unto death and other is not.

Sin unto death can yes happen after one truely has real faith–in fact one could be in a state of grace most of their life–mortally sin–die–and yes they would go to Hell after having real faith!

Catholics know the reality that man can Mortaly sin—Protestants try to pretend that they can’t after once having faith or that it doesn’t matter if they sin after once having faith.

Well it does matter and it can happen and those who say that it can’t or that it will not cause one to lose their salvation do not have the truth in them!

 

[Atemi]

Hello again Nita,

I’ve seen all the accusations that we teach works are what save, etc. but I’ve never seen that we teach X number of works must be done. That’s why it struck me - as ridiculous and funny - and I decided to respond.

Since zero good works will not justify you before God, at what point are you thus jusitifed by your works before a Holy God?

Anyone?

So far the Catholic answer remains:

**Every Catholic knows that the RCC teaches that good works are necessary for salvation. She plainly teaches that good works are required or you cannot be saved.

Justified by your works, remember? (see James 2)

Obviously, if the Christian does no good works they cannot be saved…and if all they do is good works all the time, then they have a very good shot at it.

Somewhere in there is the quota for good works necessary to justify you before God.

How many is it? What kinds?**

Saying “works are necessary” IS NOT the same thing as saying “works save”.

So you have to do good works to be saved…but they just don’t save.

However you would like to phrase it…

Catholicism teaches that grace alone saves; it is the presence of sanctifying grace in our soul that is the “criteria” (my word) which determines whether or not we enter heaven. It is freely given in Baptism; no good works are required to receive it.

Except the good work of water baptism.

That grace is not so freely given to those babies who do not have that work done to them according to RC teaching.

If a baptized baby (who cannot possibly perform a good work or make a profession of faith) dies, he will go to heaven because of God’s grace present in his soul. The same would hold true for an adult were he to die immediately after being baptized. So, yes, it is possible for a Christian to go to heaven who has done no good works - other than the good work of being baptized (and for the adult also a profession of faith).

You just said it: "…other than the good work of being baptised"

But either way, we are not talking about initial justification as I am asking people this question who have crossed the Tiber looooong ago. They cannot fall back on their initial justification. They now need good works.

How many and of what quality?

This remains unanswered, other than “I don’t know” (which is the most accurate RC position).

Now, if you are living your life, and trying to follow God’s commands, then you are doing “works” - for that is what “works” are - namely, doing the things God commands/wants us to do in the way He wants us to do them (that is, for the right reasons).

And what are all those commands and works that the Catholic must do to be saved?

Cut short on “doing the things” you speak of and no justification or salvation for you. At what point does your good works tip that scale?

Anyone?

We are able to do this only because of His grace present in our souls strengthening us and guiding us.

I agree…but His grace surely does not do the works for you (or else God would be to blame for anyone not being saved for a lack of good works).

…

(Cont.)

 

[Atemi]

(Cont.)

I am really curious.

1. Do you believe the only thing necessary for eternal life in heaven is a profession of faith in Jesus?

No.

The only thing necessary for the FREE gift of eternal life is repentance and faith in the Gospel.

Professions are a dime a dozen…whether Catholic or Protestant or candle-stick maker.

1. Do you really believe that you can:
   *knowingly and willfully disobey the “serious” commands God has given,
   *continue to indulge in those sin/s (eg. Gal 5:19-21),
   *not repent when you do,
   *and still believe that on judgement day God will look at your soul ignoring its rebellious sinful state and declare: “you are righteous in my sight; come into heaven.”?

No.

The faithful and repentant have a hatred of sin akin to that of their Father…though they will still entertain it (less and less) as they grow.

The faithful and repentant, by definition, are repentant…often even before they sin.

If you don’t believe the above, if you believe we must try to obey God’s commands, then you believe in “works” the way Catholicism teaches works.

No.

Works are not necessary to receive the FREE gift of eternal life from our Father. As soon as you say they are, then a certain amount are obviously going to be required as a necessity.

Works are a response and result of previous justification and salvation…never the cause.

We cannot merit eternal life in any way or form.

I really hope you will respond to the above questions because it’s something I’ve always wondered about OSAS believers.

I am not an OSAS believer, though I tend to lean in that direction.

My understanding is that that is what they really believe. I’m not asking the questions to be provocative, but because I really want to know.

Understood. I have grilled you. You are entitled to grill me.

**Let’s just assume you may die today.

Have you done enough good works to justify you before a Holy God?

If yes…how do you know?
If no…how do you know and doesn’t that frighten you?
If you don’t know…that is my point.**

As to the judgement of my soul, that is for God to do. It is actually one of the things he told us not to do “Judge not…”

As of now, your answer is “you don’t know.”

That is what I have been saying of RC thought all this time.

Since I am unaware of any serious unrepented sin in my life, were I to die right now, I would have every reason to hope and trust in God’s loving acceptance of me.

First of all, we are not talking about unrepentant mortal sin, but good works you have done or the lack thereof.

Secondly, how can you have every reason to hope you would be saved if you just said you are to “Judge not”?

To have hope in the unknown and unpromised is no true biblical hope at all.

Does it frighten me? Not in the way I think you’re implying. It frightens me only in the sense that I know how important it is to my salvation to obey God. Hell is frightening. But I don’t spend my time thinking about hell - but rather about trying to live my day the way God wants me to.

Hmmm.

It seems you truly believe you pray enough, go to Mass enough, serve enough, fast enough, give enough, read your Scriptures enough, love your neighbor enough, etc…

I personally know I have not done any one of the above enough to justify me before a Holy God. I never could as I am. That is why He justifies the wicked, not the godly.

…

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Run away from my post Atemi!

Run away from faith having to continue through God-willed works!

Run away from scriptural Proof that Faith Alone does not save and works do–call James 2:24 a lie!

Run away from the difference between a sin unto death and one not unto death!

Run away from Jesus giving the disciples the power to forgive and retain sin–why would that be necessary if faith alone saved?!

Deal with the Bible!

Deal with God’s word!

Deal with Christ’s Catholic Church!

Faith Alone as the bible says does not save–if you believe that it does then you believe that James 2:24 is a lie.

If you believe that works don’t save then you believe that James 2:24 lies!

Who has the truth–you Atemi or James 2:24?

 

[Atemi]

Run away from my post Atemi!
Run away from faith having to continue through God-willed works!
Run away from scriptural Proof that Faith Alone does not save and works do–call James 2:24 a lie!
Run away from the difference between a sin unto death and one not unto death!
Run away from Jesus giving the disciples the power to forgive and retain sin–why would that be necessary if faith alone saved?!

Deal with the Bible!

Deal with God’s word!

Deal with Christ’s Catholic Church!

Faith Alone as the bible says does not save–if you believe that it does then you believe that James 2:24 is a lie.

If you believe that works don’t save then you believe that James 2:24 lies!

Who has the truth–you Atemi or James 2:24?

Wow.

Take a deep breath, Jerry.

Innnnn…ouuuuuuut.

That’s it…

…

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Don’t worry Atemi–I will not hold my breath waiting for you to answer such questions–I will however believe James 2:24 over you and urge all Catholics and anyone els who is lurking here to do the same.

Can I get an Amen from you Atemi on the authority of James 2:24?

 

[mikeledes]

How many and what kinds of God willed works complete faith?

Some?
A few?
Occasionally?
24/7?

…

The Catholic Church does not teach that going to heaven depends on the quantity of one’s works. It’s not as if there is a scale in which our good works are weighed against our sins. The works the Catholic church considers “meritorious” are those works performed out of faith and love, love of God and love of neighbor. However, only those who have been justified, regenerated, and in a state of grace can perform these works because only they can have true love for God and neighbor. And this love is iself a gift of God, a fruit of the Holy Spirit working within us.

Moreover, one must persevere. This perseverance is a fruit of God’s grace and we believe that final perseverance (i.e. basically dying in a state of grace) is a gift of God that cannot be earned. God gives us many gifts, gifts that empower us to confom our lives to the gift of justification by obeying God’s call to holiness. Only those who have been delivered from the power of sin (i.e. the justified) can do so. However, we will be held accountable on how we respond to and use these gifts:

Romans 2:6-7

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

John 5:28-29

**Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. **

Galatians 6:7-10

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Revelation 2:26

26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations

1 Timothy 6:17-19

17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. 18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Matthew 25:31-36

**31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ **

Luke 10:25-28

**25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I am not an OSAS believer, though I tend to lean in that direction.

Why are you not a OSAS believer?

God Bless,
Michael