Works

[adam_in_ohio]

I’m studdying John Martignoni’s talk and notes on Sola Fide. In the notes under the Catholic case against Sola Fide. He has some scripture quotes talking about works. (Rom 16:9, 21, 26) But I don’t get what the revelance of these scriptures is to works.
It seems almost thar they just contain the word works. Help please! Oh yea why woulden’t he of used Rom16:12

Rom 16:9 Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys.
Rom 16:10 Greet Apelles, who is approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the family of Aristobulus.
Rom 16:11 Greet my relative Herodion. Greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of Narcissus.
Rom 16:12 Greet those workers in the Lord, Tryphaena and Tryphosa. Greet the beloved Persis, who has worked hard in the Lord.
Rom 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
Rom 16:14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and the brothers who are with them.
Rom 16:15 Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the holy ones who are with them.
Rom 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.
Rom 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For such people do not serve our Lord Christ but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the innocent.
Rom 16:19 For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I want you to be wise as to what is good, and simple as to what is evil;
Rom 16:20 then the God of peace will quickly crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
Rom 16:21 Timothy, my co-worker, greets you; so do Lucius and Jason and Sosipater, my relatives.
Rom 16:22 I, Tertius, the writer of this letter, greet you in the Lord.
Rom 16:23 Gaius, who is host to me and to the whole church, greets you. Erastus, the city treasurer, and our brother Quartus greet you.
Rom 16:24 ) (
Rom 16:25 Now to him who can strengthen you, according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret for long ages
Rom 16:26 but now manifested through the prophetic writings and, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all nations to bring about the obedience of faith,

 

[savedsinner]

somehow I think he listed the wrong verses there.
I guess I will have to go back to the audio program and re-listen to it to find out which are the correct verses.

 

[rogue13]

savedsinner: “somehow I think he listed the wrong verses there.”

Actually, I don’t think those verses are listed by mistake. If you look at Rom 1:5 and Rom 16:26, they both talk about “bring[ing] about the obedience of faith.” Well, the phrase “obedience of faith” in and of itself implies faith and works. Being obedient is a work. Why do we need the “obedience of faith”? Why not just plain ol’ faith?

Also, in Rom 16:9 and 16:21, it talks about “co-workers” in Christ. Why are they working? What are they working for? We don’t have to work, we just have to faith, right?

Why wouldn’t he have used Rom 16:12? Well, it doesn’t look like he was trying to provide an exhaustive list of all the places the word “workers” is used, but just an example or two. In fact, I don’t think he even mentions these verses in his talk.

These are definitely not “homerun” verses, but they can be used to add to the argument.

 

[Joey1976]

Listen to the debate on Faith Alone. He uses many Biblical references to works but none of those. I think he did list the wrong ones. The debate is awesome tho.

 

[rogue13]

Well, I’ve heard all of his stuff…many times…and you are correct in that he doesn’t use those verses in his Sola Fide debate nor does he use them in his regular Sola Fide talk; however, I’m pretty sure that those verses are not accidental - but, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[howdytest]

bibleresources.bible.com/keywordsearchresults.php?multiplemethod=all&numpageresults=25&select=searchBible&keyword=beloved&version=51

Sounds to me like the usage of “beloved” is the key here. Now i may not phrase this right, so please be lenient. But the word “beloved” is often used to describe someone or something pleasing.

Matthew 12:18
“Look at my Servant, whom I have chosen.He is my Beloved, who pleases me.I will put my Spirit upon him,and he will proclaim justice to the nations."

Perhaps a linguistic expert could tell us better about how beloved was used, but i think if we accept beloved to be “is loved”. Will work.

The verses in question basically tell us that the people who work in God, the people following God’s Will, and those listening to the Truth of Jesus Christ are “beloved” by God and welcome in his Home.

Also, if someone could provide a link to the audio files, i’m interested in hearing the debate. In my debates of Sola Fide, I’ve come to realization that protestants and Catholics have a pretty similar view, only phrased different. Perhaps this is limited to who i’m talking to, but i’m curious as to how he approaches it.

 

[Ilroy]

bibleresources.bible.com/keywordsearchresults.php?multiplemethod=all&numpageresults=25&select=searchBible&keyword=beloved&version=51

Also, if someone could provide a link to the audio files, i’m interested in hearing the debate. In my debates of Sola Fide, I’ve come to realization that protestants and Catholics have a pretty similar view, only phrased different. Perhaps this is limited to who i’m talking to, but i’m curious as to how he approaches it.

biblechristiansociety.com/