"world without end"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cpb88
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Cpb88

Guest
During the Rosary:

“Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,* world without end*. Amen”

This phrase confuses me because I thought that Catholics believe the world is going to end eventually. Any solutions?
 
In Latin (the way I hear it as Mass) it says “saecula saeculorum.”

Saecula is basically a noun meaning “age,” “period,” or “era.” Saeculorem is a version of the same word with a possessive meaning.

The most literal translation therefore is something like “age of ages,” or less literally “from age to age.”

There is actually no word for “world” (mundum) in the original Latin form of the prayer. It’s a complete mystery to me why it was translated this way, but there you have it.

I am happy to say it the way it’s been said in English for centuries, but I don’t take it literally.
 
Rich_C said:
In Latin (the way I hear it as Mass) it says “saecula saeculorum.”

Saecula is basically a noun meaning “age,” “period,” or “era.” Saeculorem is a version of the same word with a possessive meaning.

The most literal translation therefore is something like “age of ages,” or less literally “from age to age.”

There is actually no word for “world” (mundum) in the original Latin form of the prayer. It’s a complete mystery to me why it was translated this way, but there you have it.

I am happy to say it the way it’s been said in English for centuries, but I don’t take it literally.
Click to expand...
Both in the Latin and in the [non-literal] English translation it’s just a figure of speech meaning “forever and ever.”

And yes, I too prefer the former English translation over the newer translation that’s used in the LOTH.
 
DaveBj said:
Both in the Latin and in the [non-literal] English translation it’s just a figure of speech meaning “forever and ever.”

And yes, I too prefer the former English translation over the newer translation that’s used in the LOTH.
Click to expand...
How does the LOTH render it?
 
The Cistercian monks at the monastery near me pray…

***Glory to the Father, and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit.
The God who is, who was,
and who is to come,
at the end of the ages.
Amen. ***

-Tim-
 
Rich_C said:
The most literal translation therefore is something like “age of ages,” or less literally “from age to age.”
Click to expand...
Most other translations are that way.

According to Collins, “The prepositional phrase in saecula saeculorum is used with adverbial force. The use of the genitive of a word to limit another case of itself is a Hebraic idiom which intensifies the meaning.”

Maybe the English tried to do this with the “forever and ever” but that would be somewhat redundant. So we’re stuck with a poor translation.
 
Blame the Anglicans. ICEL correctly translated it for the LOTH back in the 70’s (?) but it never caught on outside of the LOTH. But the Anglicans and others can blame the Catholics for giving them “And also with you,” so let’s call it even.
 
johnmann said:
Blame the Anglicans. ICEL correctly translated it for the LOTH back in the 70’s (?) but it never caught on outside of the LOTH. But the Anglicans and others can blame the Catholics for giving them “And also with you,” so let’s call it even.
Click to expand...
Haha, yes I understand that’s also how the English pater noster ended up going “forgive us our trespasses” instead of the original Catholic translation, “forgive us our debts.”

Sometimes in my private rosaries I used to say “debts” but nowadays I’m loath to innovate, even to restore lost practices.
 
In Swedish its translated:

“Glory be to the Father
and to the Son
and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,
From eternity to eternity. Amen”

🤷
 
Per omnia, which precedes saecula saeculorum means ‘by all’ or ‘for all’, or I suppose even ‘for every’. So literally saying something like “For every age after age”, but truly just referring to the Eternal Reign of God.
 
As has been said, “world without end” is an antequated English expression meaning “forever and ever.” I think in more recent translations of prayers, like in the Liturgy of the Hours, it just says “forever and ever” for this very reason.
 
Rich_C said:
In Latin (the way I hear it as Mass) it says “saecula saeculorum.”

Saecula is basically a noun meaning “age,” “period,” or “era.” Saeculorem is a version of the same word with a possessive meaning.

The most literal translation therefore is something like “age of ages,” or less literally “from age to age.”

There is actually no word for “world” (mundum) in the original Latin form of the prayer. It’s a complete mystery to me why it was translated this way, but there you have it.

I am happy to say it the way it’s been said in English for centuries, but I don’t take it literally.
Click to expand...
That is how Orthodox say it: “to ages of ages. Amen”
 
Mumbles140 said:
Per omnia, which precedes saecula saeculorum means ‘by all’ or ‘for all’, or I suppose even ‘for every’. So literally saying something like “For every age after age”, but truly just referring to the Eternal Reign of God.
Click to expand...
Yes, it seems “through ALL ages of ages,” (as in past and future) would extend the range of “in the beginning, is now, and always.” God really doesn’t have a beginning.
 
Cpb88 said:
During the Rosary:

“Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,* world without end*. Amen”

This phrase confuses me because I thought that Catholics believe the world is going to end eventually. Any solutions?
Click to expand...
The Slavonic is “i vo viki vikov” - “and to ages of ages”… just like the Latin.

The full slavonic: “Slava Otcu, i Synu, i Svjatomu Duchu, i nyňi i prisno, i vo viki vikov, Amin.” In English, Gory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, Now, and ever, and forever, Amen.

The English translation for the Roman Rite Glory Be is, to be blunt, defective as a translation. It’s good poetry, and from a certain point of view, the world will be endless - once the material world is left behind for the heavenly. And then there’s the physics meaning - there is no edge to the known universe. But none of that makes it a good translation of the Latin.

ANd the trinity is “coeternal with the Father” - it has no beginning, no ending. And it can be seen as the world in which heaven exists - the perfect uniting of each of us with God is the ultimate goal.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top