Would it be immoral to observe a sex-change operation?

[Della]

If I may speak for Petergee, I believe he isn’t addressing deformities. He is talking about those who are physically normal, but who want to be a different sex. In those cases, changing sex by an operation that destroys perfectly healthy genitalia is a mutilation of the body, besides deliberately rendering the person sterile. Both are grave sins. No one is saying, that I’ve noticed, that those with physical disorders can’t/shouldn’t have corrective surgery. I hope that clarifies the issue.

 

[Cherry5]

If I may speak for Petergee, I believe he isn’t addressing deformities. He is talking about those who are physically normal, but who want to be a different sex. In those cases, changing sex by an operation that destroys perfectly healthy genitalia is a mutilation of the body, besides deliberately rendering the person sterile. Both are grave sins. No one is saying, that I’ve noticed, that those with physical disorders can’t/shouldn’t have corrective surgery. I hope that clarifies the issue.

I think you missed the point that Dale and Swords are trying to make, it is not that people with GID “want” to be different sex but that they “are” and that it need not be the physical characteristics that determine the sex but the brain. From that perspective it is correcting a physical deformity that aligns the physical sex with the brain, which arguably in this case is the preferred way to go (as determined by physicians). I do believe that it is very difficult for some one who does not have GID to understand what that really means, much less have any sympathy or empathy for them.

 

[Della]

I think you missed the point that Dale and Swords are trying to make, it is not that people with GID “want” to be different sex but that they “are” and that it need not be the physical characteristics that determine the sex but the brain. From that perspective it is correcting a physical deformity that aligns the physical sex with the brain, which arguably in this case is the preferred way to go (as determined by physicians). I do believe that it is very difficult for some one who does not have GID to understand what that really means, much less have any sympathy or empathy for them.

I have much sympathy. Anyone who is living with a disorder of any kind has my sympathy. But, removing healthy body parts that would engender children if the person married isn’t the way to deal with it. There are counselors for these people who can help them. It’s not for their greater good to encourage them to have an irreversible procedure they may deeply regret having had.

 

[Petergee]

I think you missed the point that Dale and Swords are trying to make, it is not that people with GID “want” to be different sex but that they “are” and that it need not be the physical characteristics that determine the sex but the brain. From that perspective it is correcting a physical deformity that aligns the physical sex with the brain, which arguably in this case is the preferred way to go (as determined by physicians). I do believe that it is very difficult for some one who does not have GID to understand what that really means, much less have any sympathy or empathy for them.

Neither the brain nor any other body part determines which sex a person is. A person’s sex is fixed at the moment if his conception by the fact of whether the sperm cell from his father (which united with his mother’s ovum cell to form the new human being that he is) containedan X or a Y chromosome.

And yes as Dale said I was not taking about correcting defects and diseases so throw out that red herring. If a man “wants” to be a woman, tough luck, it’s impossible. No matter how many operations he has and how many sex hormones and other drugs are pumped into him for the rest of his life to make him LOOK like a woman, he will always be a man. His “want” is a disorder, amd if he finds it impossible to just suck it up and face reality, then yes he needs psychiatric treatment. No matter how much sympathy and empathy we have with him. And fyi a friend of mine suffers from this delusion.

 

[jc4751]

Neither the brain nor any other body part determines which sex a person is. A person’s sex is fixed at the moment if his conception by the fact of whether the sperm cell from his father (which united with his mother’s ovum cell to form the new human being that he is) containedan X or a Y chromosome.

And yes as Dale said I was not taking about correcting defects and diseases so throw out that red herring. If a man “wants” to be a woman, tough luck, it’s impossible. No matter how many operations he has and how many sex hormones and other drugs are pumped into him for the rest of his life to make him LOOK like a woman, he will always be a man. His “want” is a disorder, amd if he finds it impossible to just suck it up and face reality, then yes he needs psychiatric treatment. No matter how much sympathy and empathy we have with him. And fyi a friend of mine suffers from this delusion.

I was going to mention that genetic sex assignment determines the condition of being male or female anyway, so no matter how many limbs are chopped off or grafted on, a tree is still a tree. The logical fallacy at work here is that people are largely focusing on the morphology of the person in question, not the essence of their being.

What’s more, there seems to be a logical inconsistency at work here – if a person said “I feel I am really meant to be a hobbit, can you cut my legs off so I can be shorter?”, we would probably all find common ground that the person needs some serious counseling and shouldn’t be permitted to mutilate himself like that. (well, aside from people trying to argue from extremes)

 

[Cherry5]

Neither the brain nor any other body part determines which sex a person is. A person’s sex is fixed at the moment if his conception by the fact of whether the sperm cell from his father (which united with his mother’s ovum cell to form the new human being that he is) containedan X or a Y chromosome.

And yes as Dale said I was not taking about correcting defects and diseases so throw out that red herring. If a man “wants” to be a woman, tough luck, it’s impossible. No matter how many operations he has and how many sex hormones and other drugs are pumped into him for the rest of his life to make him LOOK like a woman, he will always be a man. His “want” is a disorder, amd if he finds it impossible to just suck it up and face reality, then yes he needs psychiatric treatment. No matter how much sympathy and empathy we have with him. And fyi a friend of mine suffers from this delusion.

If you care to continue to be a friend (and be Christian), you need to accept him/her the way he/she is as nothing you or anyone else says will change your friend’s mind. I understand your discomfort with the situation but frankly you need to treat your friend as a person and celebrate your friendship. Leave the diagnosis and treatment to the professionals, your friend can not transition without their approval and consent.

God bless

 

[Cherry5]

The logical fallacy at work here is that people are largely focusing on the morphology of the person in question, not the essence of their being.

I agree treat people like people regardless of how they present themselves.

God bless

 

[Petergee]

If you care to continue to be a friend (and be Christian), you need to accept him/her the way he/she is as nothing you or anyone else says will change your friend’s mind. I understand your discomfort with the situation but frankly you need to treat your friend as a person and celebrate your friendship. Leave the diagnosis and treatment to the professionals, your friend can not transition without their approval and consent.

God bless

If you cared to stop accusing me of not accepting my friend or of not treating him as a person or of not celebrating our friendship, or of trying to practise unlicensed medicine on him ,and of not being a friend, and of not being a Christian : , and if you cared to stop claiming that you somehow magically know what my feelings towards him are, then your closing salutation would not be so absurdly hypocritical.

 

[Theresa_Frances]

Indeed. But at the same time, we are more than our genitals. If transsexualism exists (which medical community accepts), then there a people who have a sexual identity which is at odds with their genitals. Is there reason to say that body trumps the mind?
Certainly birth defects occur, and the Church does not object to the surgical correction of them. Transsexuals frequently claim their condition is a birth defect, and there seems some medical research in support of that claim.

I have replied to posts in this forum before as a Catholic who has personally faced the dilema of dealing with the inner sense of gender as opposed to the physical aspects which determine which sex a person is classified. In my case the realization of my gender was so strong that I finally had to reveal my inner feelings to my parents who after years of seeking spiritual, medical, and counseling options that would help me live and accept the physical aspect of being male as opposed to female, supported my physical transition to be the person I knew I was. I know it is hard to realize, unless you are faced with the situation, how strong the need is to have conformity with your mental sense of gender and your physical self, and how you will be known and function in society.

Very true. But such surgery can allow for more effective functioning in society, and increased happiness. Reproduction is not our only purpose in life.

This is true in my case. Where I was once self centered, selfish and consumed by my own problems, I am now able to be a much more charitable and loving person both within my family and to others.

Oh, not true. A former member of CAF, Zoe Brain has posted extensively on the medical research which indicates biological basis for transsexualism. I think the knowledge is still developing, but it does seem to point to a biological origin.

There are vast amounts of medical research. The latest points to brain structures which appear female and may be influential as to why a physically male person would have a sense of their gender being female.

And yet the Catholic Church has knowingly married transsexuals in the past. A classic example would be the French actress and singer, Coccinelle. In the 1960a, she was married in Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris (but was first required to be baptized a second time, so that her name was listed) Less high profile transsexuals have also received Church weddings, including a one-time member of CAF (who hasn’t posted in a few years.) In this latter case, her baptismal certificate was changed to reflect her corrected sex.

When I began transitioning in 2003 my pastor was not familiar with the Vatican position. His understanding at the time was that it was a pastoral decision based on an assessmaet of the indiviual’s situation and could be morally acceptable. The Vatican position came to light during my process of transitioning, but I was already well into the process and experiencing a significantly improved quality of life.

I find that an interesting claim, but Fr. Saunders doesn’t explain his thinking. Would you have some insight? I would think that a transsexual woman, born with male genitals, but surgically corrected would be able to fully express her womanhood in a loving relationship.

***I feel that I can support this observation. Nothing would make me happier then to have children, but in the situation I experienced living as a male I would not have been able to provide a proper nurturing family environment. Moreover, I would not have been able to enter into enter into a loving relationship in that scenario. ***

I just want to ad, that no part of my transition was done without serious consideration of moral correctness or incorrectness. My parents, and I through them, are conservative Catholics who would never think of going against the Church. I feel I was faced with a birth defect. I do regret that surgical means were required to have my mental and physical gender conform, but I would nove had used the structures for reproductive purposes anyway and I feel a greater good was acheived in having corrective surgery.

 

[Carmel_B]

Well, no. I was too lazy earlier to look up the research links which Zoe Brain has posted, but here a few:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5066992&postcount=165

A partial list is :

Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;

…the data implicate that transsexuality may be associated with sex-atypical physiological responses in specific hypothalamic circuits, possibly as a consequence of a variant neuronal differentiation.

Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041

The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.

Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.

Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking. In the human brain, structural differences have been described that seem to be related to gender identity and sexual orientation.

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones

A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.

We propose that the sex reversal of the INAH3 in transsexual people is at least partly a marker of an early atypical sexual differentiation of the brain and that the changes in INAH3 and the BSTc may belong to a complex network that may structurally and functionally be related to gender identity.

White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study. - Rametti et al, J Psychiatr Res. 2010 Jun 8.

CONCLUSIONS: Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals.

Regional cerebral blood flow changes in female to male gender identity disorder. - Tanaka et al, Psychiatry Clin Neurosci. 2010 Apr 1;64(2):157-61.

RESULTS: GID subjects had a significant decrease in rCBF in the left anterior cingulate cortex (ACC) and a significant increase in the right insula compared to control subjects.
CONCLUSIONS: The ACC and insula are regions that have been noted as being related to human sexual behavior and consciousness. From these findings, useful insights into the biological basis of GID were suggested.

Disorders of sex development expose transcriptional autonomy of genetic sex and androgen-programmed hormonal sex in human blood leukocytes. by Holterhus et al BMC Genomics. 2009 Jul 1;10:292.

CONCLUSION: A significant fraction of gene expression differences between males and females in the human appears to have its roots in early embryogenesis and is not only caused by sex chromosomes but also by long-term sex-specific hormonal programming due to presence or absence of androgen during the time of external genital masculinization. Genetic sex and the androgen milieu during embryonic development might therefore independently modulate functional traits, phenotype and diseases associated with male or female gender as well as with DSD conditions.

All very interesting as it shows that these abnormal individuals have real anatomical and physical differences from the norm despite appearances but completely irrelevant.

A Catholic Bishops Conference has stated that anyone with 2 X chromosomes is female, and anyone else is male and until the Magisterium says otherwise as Catholics we must believe and obey. Surgical changes are purely cosmetic and make no difference to the real sex.

Even if a man born looking like a woman has periods and after engaging in sinful homosexual intercourse gives birth he is still a man if he has XY or X chromosomes. Even if a woman born looking like a man has fully functional male genitalia and after engaging in objectively disordered lesbian intercourse fathers children she is still a woman if she has XX XXY XXYY or has a single cell in her body with at least two X chromosomes in it.

Such objectively disordered freaks whose existence is against all Natural Law must have been caused by the Fall and Man’s sinfulness or direct demonic intervention possibly including trafficking by the mother with unclean spirits. While of course we must treat such people with compassion and help them to bear their cross with all Christian kindness we trust them or employ them or invite them into our homes or allow them to comment in this forum at our own risk as they may be the literal spawn of the devil. As Catholics we must distrust so-called “science” and believe what the Magisterium tells us about the reality of demonic influence without question or be convicted of heresy

 

[egm85]

All very interesting as it shows that these abnormal individuals have real anatomical and physical differences from the norm despite appearances but completely irrelevant.

A Catholic Bishops Conference has stated that anyone with 2 X chromosomes is female, and anyone else is male and until the Magisterium says otherwise as Catholics we must believe and obey. Surgical changes are purely cosmetic and make no difference to the real sex.

Even if a man born looking like a woman has periods and after engaging in sinful homosexual intercourse gives birth he is still a man if he has XY or X chromosomes. Even if a woman born looking like a man has fully functional male genitalia and after engaging in objectively disordered lesbian intercourse fathers children she is still a woman if she has XX XXY XXYY or has a single cell in her body with at least two X chromosomes in it.

Such objectively disordered freaks whose existence is against all Natural Law must have been caused by the Fall and Man’s sinfulness or direct demonic intervention possibly including trafficking by the mother with unclean spirits. While of course we must treat such people with compassion and help them to bear their cross with all Christian kindness we trust them or employ them or invite them into our homes or allow them to comment in this forum at our own risk as they may be the literal spawn of the devil. As Catholics we must distrust so-called “science” and believe what the Magisterium tells us about the reality of demonic influence without question or be convicted of heresy

If we went around defining people by what their chromosomes look like, we’d have no humans left on this earth! Translocations, trisomy, mutations, deletions… there’s so many things that vary from the norm. I would suggest not judging people by their genetic makeup. Unless you can karyotype and genotype somebody based on looking at them, you probably have no idea of the abnormal Xs and Ys slipping under your radar.

I wish for threads like these, we could see level of science/health education and personal beliefs. I don’t think the correlations would be very surprising…

 

[Cherry5]

A partial list is :

Such objectively disordered freaks whose existence is against all Natural Law must have been caused by the Fall and Man’s sinfulness or direct demonic intervention possibly including trafficking by the mother with unclean spirits. While of course we must treat such people with compassion and help them to bear their cross with all Christian kindness we trust them or employ them or invite them into our homes or allow them to comment in this forum at our own risk as they may be the literal spawn of the devil. As Catholics we must distrust so-called “science” and believe what the Magisterium tells us about the reality of demonic influence without question or be convicted of heresy

Wow, what a sad reflection of our Faith. Perhaps you should share this opinion with your pastor and get his view.

 

[Phemie]

Re.

Consequently, the document instructs bishops never to alter the sex listed in parish baptismal records and says Catholics who have undergone “sex-change” procedures are not eligible to marry, be ordained to the priesthood or enter religious life, according to a source familiar with the text.

I’ve yet to see a Baptismal register with a section for the sex of the person being baptized. We assume that we know based on the name, but today some names are used for both males and females.

Until a little over a year ago, we asked the sex of the baby because we were required to fill out papers for Vital Statistics but since we no longer have to do that …

 

[BlueShadow123]

No. It has to do with the medical branch. Theres nothing wrong with that, unless you are lusting after that, but obviously anybody lusting after what a surgery looks like needs help. I’ve seen pictures of it before.