Would Latin Mass unite or divide? Interesting article from the Diocese of Bismark, ND

[Caveman]

From the Bismark Tribune.

Here’s a bit of what Bishop Zipfel said;

Unlike the current Mass, which people can see and hear in their own language, in the Tridentine, “everything was done with (the priest’s) back to the people and in quiet. People didn’t know what was being done,” Zipfel said.

The pendulum in worship may have swung too far toward casualness in the 1960s, he said. He believes that if pastors are careful about upholding reverence, there might not be much call to return to the old form. “I would not want to see people turn their backs on Vatican II,” he said.

Wasn’t there a Catholic Church before Vatican II? My take is here

 

[Tomster]

Caveman,

I sometimes reflect on the irony that Vatican II, an avowedly pastoral council, triggered a doctrinal crisis; while Traditional Catholicism, in defending doctrine, brought about a pastoral crisis.

Semper Fi,
Tomster

North Carolina via San Diego (1969 - 1972)

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Caveman,

I sometimes reflect on the irony that Vatican II, an avowedly pastoral council, triggered a doctrinal crisis; while Traditional Catholicism, in defending doctrine, brought about a pastoral crisis.

Semper Fi,
Tomster

North Carolina via San Diego (1969 - 1972)

I have been saying something similar:

Traditionalist (mostly on the radical side) tend to raise disciplines to doctrine while Progressives/Modernists tend to lower doctrine to disciplines.

 

[Caveman]

I sometimes reflect on the irony that Vatican II, an avowedly pastoral council, triggered a doctrinal crisis; while Traditional Catholicism, in defending doctrine, brought about a pastoral crisis.

I LIKE THAT!!

Semper Fidelis et Pax Christi, frate
Vir Speluncae Catholicus

 

[Wolseley]

The whole thing can be summed up with this passage:

The pendulum in worship may have swung too far toward casualness in the 1960s, he said. He believes that if pastors are careful about upholding reverence, there might not be much call to return to the old form.

(Bolding mine.) Yeah, that’s just it, isn’t it, Bishop Zipfel? The never-ending parade of awful abuses and hideous music doesn’t really do much for “upholding reverence”, in the opinion of many and many of Us Out Here In the Pews.

“I would not want to see people turn their backs on Vatican II,” he said.

How about turning our backs on “clown Masses”, “polka Masses”, “rock Masses”, “teen Masses”, and “Add Water and Stir Masses”? Nobody’s advocating that we ditch Vatican II—all we want is to ditch the liberalized sheepdip that has been passed off as Vatican II for the last 40 years.

As Father Benedict Groeschel once so eloquently stated, “If you ever meet up with ‘the Spirit of Vatican II’, drive a wooden stake in its heart.”

 

[Tomster]

I LIKE THAT!!

Semper Fidelis et Pax Christi, frate
Vir Speluncae Catholicus

Cavemen,

Traditional Catholics are often criticized unjustly for being prideful or rebellious or schismatic. We are none of the above. But we are sometimes lacking in charity, toward one another as well as towards our enemies. We are in a fight for our faith. The very people that should be our support are undermining us. And, as Henry V says before the walls of Harfleur, we must sometimes assume the aspect of the tiger and stiffen the sinews; but we also have to know when to cast off that tigerish aspect and relax the sinews.

There is much ado in the post-Conciliar Church about returning to primitive Christianity. But primitive Christianity is nothing other than the received doctrine that the Church has always preserved and that we are figthing to keep intact. But the doctrine must not be separated from the charity in which it abides. In Christ, the letter of the law and the spirit of the law are one, as we must be one.

God bless,
Semper Fi,
Tomster

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

I would say it would divide. Let me quote the late Bishop Raymond Lucker’s May 1992 pastoral letter.

“I felt I had to deny the request for the following reasons”

1. I believe that such a practice in the diocese would be a source of disunity.
2. Such a practice would be disruptive and occasion continued conflict in the diocese.
3. It would create a parallel rite in the church and cause confusion.
4. It would be a focus for those unhappy with the renewal of the church set in motion by the Second Vatican Council."

Later he brings up a 1984 letter by the Sacred Congregation of Divine Worship about respecting and feelings. He interpreted it to be only intended for the followers of Lefebvre as a tool of reconciliation and "not to be a vehicle for the expression of attitudes detrimental to the unity of the church.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

How about turning our backs on “clown Masses”, “polka Masses”, “rock Masses”, “teen Masses”, and “Add Water and Stir Masses”? Nobody’s advocating that we ditch Vatican II—all we want is to ditch the liberalized sheepdip that has been passed off as Vatican II for the last 40 years.

As Father Benedict Groeschel once so eloquently stated, “If you ever meet up with ‘the Spirit of Vatican II’, drive a wooden stake in its heart.”

Many of those examples are the mass used to try to increase participation. Most teens/young adults are turned off and most are disconnected by TLM. They are drawn to service but there is a serious detachment by how TLM is set up (I experienced it myself by watching a few TLM things (1941 High mass and more recent Low mass) on YouTube). That is why outreach efforts by FU in Stubenville even make it more modern to youth today (e.g. Stubenville North).

As for the Polka Masses, I have spent time going back and forth from Central Wisconsin (a very Polish area) and it is a more conservative area of the state but even think of taking Polka masses away from them and you are stirring up a hornet’s nest. This is just a regional, ethnic tradition passed on by those who set up the parish communities when they emigrated a century or more ago.

 

[Wolseley]

Many of those examples are the mass used to try to increase participation. Most teens/young adults are turned off and most are disconnected by TLM.

Do a Google search with the terms “young Catholics Latin Mass” and the results tell a different story.

As for the Polka Masses, I have spent time going back and forth from Central Wisconsin (a very Polish area) and it is a more conservative area of the state but even think of taking Polka masses away from them and you are stirring up a hornet’s nest. This is just a regional, ethnic tradition passed on by those who set up the parish communities when they emigrated a century or more ago.

You’re trying to tell me that Catholic parishes in Wisconsin celebrated polka Masses “a century or more” ago?

Come, now. I didn’t fall off a pickle boat the day before yesterday.

 

[srp643]

I would say it would divide. Let me quote the late Bishop Raymond Lucker’s May 1992 pastoral letter.

“I felt I had to deny the request for the following reasons”

1. I believe that such a practice in the diocese would be a source of disunity.
2. Such a practice would be disruptive and occasion continued conflict in the diocese.
3. It would create a parallel rite in the church and cause confusion.
4. It would be a focus for those unhappy with the renewal of the church set in motion by the Second Vatican Council."

Later he brings up a 1984 letter by the Sacred Congregation of Divine Worship about respecting and feelings. He interpreted it to be only intended for the followers of Lefebvre as a tool of reconciliation and "not to be a vehicle for the expression of attitudes detrimental to the unity of the church.

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. Let us pray for the deceased bishop.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Do a Google search with the terms “young Catholics Latin Mass” and the results tell a different story.

You’re trying to tell me that Catholic parishes in Wisconsin celebrated polka Masses “a century or more” ago?

Come, now. I didn’t fall off a pickle boat the day before yesterday.

It has been about 40 years of Polka masses in the upper Midwest (late 60’s to early 70’s but maybe even earlier in some areas). But it is now part of many parishes’ traditions. These are still conservative areas. Actually a priest from northern Minnesota who started doing them in 1973 was able to do a Polka Mass for JPII in 1983 and the late Pope enjoyed it then.

tinyurl.com/2fzhyv

I did the Google search and while I see an increase it is a small increase in total numbers compared to the total number of Catholic youth across the country. I do not see it being large enough for an abandonment of the current ways.

 

[BobP123]

It has been about 40 years of Polka masses in the upper Midwest (late 60’s to early 70’s but maybe even earlier in some areas). But it is now part of many parishes’ traditions. These are still conservative areas. Actually a priest from northern Minnesota who started doing them in 1973 was able to do a Polka Mass for JPII in 1983 and the late Pope enjoyed it then.

tinyurl.com/2fzhyv

I did the Google search and while I see an increase it is a small increase in total numbers compared to the total number of Catholic youth across the country. I do not see it being large enough for an abandonment of the current ways.

I see what you mean. I would certainly hate to divide these folks:

youtube.com/watch?v=-phrdw_ndo4

Does this Mass actually fulfill your Sunday obligation?

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

I see what you mean. I would certainly hate to divide these folks:

youtube.com/watch?v=-phrdw_ndo4

Does this Mass actually fulfill your Sunday obligation?

Yes it would, masses can be said outside the building of the church. Each parish does it differently, here is one in Detroit having one inside the church building.

youtube.com/watch?v=53Bv8ixBAVs

Outdoor services are allowed, the Vatican does them all the time.

 

[BobP123]

Yes it would, masses can be said outside the building of the church. Each parish does it differently, here is one in Detroit having one inside the church building.

youtube.com/watch?v=53Bv8ixBAVs

Outdoor services are allowed, the Vatican does them all the time.

Excuse me from digressing, but how far away can you be and still obtain the full graces of attending a Mass? 500 feet? 1 mile? Is this specified in the GIRM?

By the way, I used to sing “Let the Sunshine In” to my baby brother a long time ago. I wonder why people weren’t singing along in your video.

 

[Genesis315]

The thing is, right now, the people who attend the TLM are very hardcore about it–they understand it, properly appreciate it, and know how to properly participate at it. But the whole reason the Council addressed the liturgy is because this was not the case in general.

I have been reading some historical accounts of Vatican II from people who were there, (then Fr. Joseph Ratzinger, Bishop Fulton Sheen, and Archbishop Lefebvre) and they all say the same thing. The reason why the Council addressed the liturgy first is because the need for at least some reform was something that everybody agreed on. The main issue that everyone agreed upon was that the liturgy was supposed to be the “work of the people” as the Greek implied, but it had become instead a time for individual devotions while the priest and the altar servers or schola did the work of the people. We see St. Pius X and Pius XII both trying to encourage more participation and understanding by the people. Certain things also, didn’t make theological sense–for example, the readings were done in the same way as the prayers, so they seemed addressed to God, whereas the readings are where God addresses the congregation.

The Council’s suggestions are a smooth progression from what those Popes encouraged–but the reforms of Pope Paul and subsequent allowances were much more drastic.

I don’t think even Pope Benedict sees the 1962 Missal as the end version for all times. I think, however, that he realizes we need stability at this time and allowing both missals to exist together will make it easier for the proper development to grow out of both.

So, in conclusion, I don’t think we should forget Vatican II either, in fact, it was forgetting it that got us into trouble, in my opinion anyway.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Excuse me from digressing, but how far away can you be and still obtain the full graces of attending a Mass? 500 feet? 1 mile? Is this specified in the GIRM?

By the way, I used to sing “Let the Sunshine In” to my baby brother a long time ago. I wonder why people weren’t singing along in your video.

Well, given the large crowds at the Vatican, as far as the Public Address system goes and as far back as the line for communion goes. The last one I saw was at Assisi.

 

[Walking_Home]

It has been about 40 years of Polka masses in the upper Midwest (late 60’s to early 70’s but maybe even earlier in some areas). But it is now part of many parishes’ traditions. These are still conservative areas. Actually a priest from northern Minnesota who started doing them in 1973 was able to do a Polka Mass for JPII in 1983 and the late Pope enjoyed it then.
tinyurl.com/2fzhyv

I did the Google search and while I see an increase it is a small increase in total numbers compared to the total number of Catholic youth across the country. I do not see it being large enough for an abandonment of the current ways.

---

Yup—our late Pope enjoyed the Polka Mass and other such type of Masses so much—he went on the write Ecclesia de Eucharistia—The Dignity of the Eucharistic Celebration and then had the instruction RS-2004 drawn up.

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0821/__P7.HTM

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

 

[Wolseley]

It has been about 40 years of Polka masses in the upper Midwest (late 60’s to early 70’s but maybe even earlier in some areas).

Yeah. Abortion has been legal for 34 years, too, but that doesn’t mean I intend to embrace it.

But it is now part of many parishes’ traditions. These are still conservative areas. Actually a priest from northern Minnesota who started doing them in 1973 was able to do a Polka Mass for JPII in 1983 and the late Pope enjoyed it then.

Pope John Paul had a remarkable willpower when it came to tolerating liturgical novelties. I suspect he believed the time wasn’t ripe for reforming them out of the Mass, and perhaps he was right. The fact that our current Pontiff appears willing to go the extra mile to not only free up the traditional Mass but to reform the reform tells me that perhaps now the time is right. I for one certainly hope so.

I did the Google search and while I see an increase it is a small increase in total numbers compared to the total number of Catholic youth across the country. I do not see it being large enough for an abandonment of the current ways.

I said nothing about “abandoning” anything, my dear fellow, other than abuse and wretched music. I myself prefer a reverent, dignified, and respectful Novus Ordo over the Tridentine Mass. The problem is trying to find a Novus Ordo that’s reverent, dignified, and respectful; believe me, they seem to be mighty hard to come by.

I had to search for three years before I found a parish where the liturgy was even close to being what the rubrics called for, and that looked like a Catholic church inside, instead of a cross between a warehouse and the floor of a stock exchange. The liturgical abuses were so hideous in my deanery that my wife left Mass in tears one Sunday and refused to go back for over a year. The Church nearly lost her. So, is that the purpose of the “novelty” Masses? To drive people out of the Church in disgust, in order to make way for teenagers who prefer rock bands instead of organs? If so, they seem to be doing a dandy fine job of it.

As for young Catholics and the Tridentine Mass, methinks the fact that you have any who prefer the older Mass to the dog-and-pony-shows that I have had inflicted on me in my day speaks volumes.

 

[SFH]

I would say it would divide. Let me quote the late Bishop Raymond Lucker’s May 1992 pastoral letter.

“I felt I had to deny the request for the following reasons”

1. I believe that such a practice in the diocese would be a source of disunity.
2. Such a practice would be disruptive and occasion continued conflict in the diocese.
3. It would create a parallel rite in the church and cause confusion.
4. It would be a focus for those unhappy with the renewal of the church set in motion by the Second Vatican Council."

Later he brings up a 1984 letter by the Sacred Congregation of Divine Worship about respecting and feelings. He interpreted it to be only intended for the followers of Lefebvre as a tool of reconciliation and "not to be a vehicle for the expression of attitudes detrimental to the unity of the church.

Sounds like the good bishop is making the case for the M.P. If the bishops refuse to follow Pope John Paul II’s request to be generous in making the Tridentine Mass available to the laity, then the Pope has to consider the pastoral needs of the laity being neglected by their bishops and give priests independent authority to offer the traditional Latin Mass. In other words, if the bishops are going to ignore the Pope, then the Pope should go straight to the priests and people.

 

[Wolseley]

Sounds like the good bishop is making the case for the M.P. If the bishops refuse to follow Pope John Paul II’s request to be generous in making the Tridentine Mass available to the laity, then the Pope has to consider the pastoral needs of the laity being neglected by their bishops and give priests independent authority to offer the traditional Latin Mass. In other words, if the bishops are going to ignore the Pope, then the Pope should go straight to the priests and people.

Bingo. Give SFH a ten-dollar cigar and a gift certificate to the store of his choice.