Would the United States of America, and thusly the proliferation of democracy throughout the western world, exist without Protestants?

[gmguldager]

I was listening to a conservative podcast recently and one of the hosts brought up some interesting points, that I fundamentally disagree with, but don’t have the historical knowledge to refute. His points were as follows:

1. North American countries such as Canada and the US are the result of Protestant Colonization while Southern American countries (and by implication their failures and shortcomings) are a result of Catholic Colonization.
2. Therefore it can be argued that Martin Luther and King Henry (despite any character flaws) did more for personal liberty and freedom in the world than any pope ever has.
3. The world can thank these two figures (and their fellow protestant reformers) for the westernization of the modern world and the freedoms that accompany it.

Like I said, I don’t have the historical knowledge to know if this is true and wondered if anyone out there does. (And I apologize if this has been addressed - I couldn’t find any other discussions with this topic)

 

[ZMystiCat]

Well, some of the early Protestant colonization was driven by a desire to get away from persecution and economic hardship in England, which was itself being driven by the Church of England. Then you can consider that Enlightenment ideals played a big role in driving the Founding Fathers, so if we want to spin a narrative, religion was always the opponent of freedom and those who developed away from it were its champions. Of course, things are considerably more complicated than that, but an atheist could easily use that narrative to attack all religion, not just Catholicism.

Really, anything of this nature is oversimplifying things. You could probably spin a narrative of how Islam, slavery, the holocaust, either world war, or Darwin were the main drivers of democracy, and that’s just to cover some big categories. It would be wrong, but it would be no less right than reducing it down to Protestantism.

And this is before even considering that Protestants, including in America, haven’t exactly had a perfect reputation for not persecuting those of other religions. It also ignores the fact that both the democracies and republics existed before America and have “pagan” roots.

 

[gmguldager]

So what do you think the US would look like if there had been no reformation? Or do you think it would exist at all? If they were fleeing anglican persecution, it could still be argued no Henry the VIII no USA. And I think i agree that freedom is at least at odds with religion. Man in his fallen state ultimately seems to corrupt even something as fundamentally good as personal liberty. It’s what tore apart ancient greek and roman society, and its whats tearing apart ours. On the whole, i think American freedom has been good, dont get me wrong. But because man adter the fall isnt good or just, you end up with things like federally legalized abortion, proliferated pornography in the name of freedom of speech and sexual imorality in the name of equality. I just wonder if the Catholic influence had still existed at the founding of the USA if it wouldnt look different today or if the churches influence would have lasted longer like it has in some of the south american cultures. But then would america also be something less than it is? Was the persecution the early americans fled what drove the ideals that created the US as it exists?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

North American countries such as Canada and the US are the result of Protestant Colonization while Southern American countries (and by implication their failures and shortcomings) are a result of Catholic Colonization.

Yeah, let’s just leave out the huge portions of the USA that were originally colonized by French Catholics and by Spanish Catholics before they later merged with the original English colonies.

 

[ZMystiCat]

So what do you think the US would look like if there had been no reformation? Or do you think it would exist at all?

It’s hard to say. Colonization would have likely happened without the Pilgrims. Enlightenment ideals would have likely been pushed without the Reformation. The colonies may have rebelled regardless, and if they had, France probably would have provided the much-needed aid that they did.

There might have been some differences if you removed Protestantism, and some things may have been delayed, but you could make an argument that all the major driving factors were there.

If they were fleeing anglican persecution, it could still be argued no Henry the VIII no USA.

I mean, that really just makes Protestantism (or at least the Church of England) the equivalent of Joseph’s brothers in the narrative - bad but used by God for some good.

Was the persecution the early americans fled what drove the ideals that created the US as it exists?

I think they were much more driven historically by events more contemporary to the Revolution and philosophically by the Enlightenment. I think any perceived overlap with Protestantism comes because:

1. Protestantism and the Enlightenment share some ideals.
2. Over the last 250 years, American Protestantism (and religion in America in general) has been heavily shaped by America’s culture and politics.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think they were much more driven historically by events more contemporary to the Revolution and philosophically by the Enlightenment. I think any perceived overlap with Protestantism comes because:

1. Protestantism and the Enlightenment share some ideals.
2. Over the last 250 years, American Protestantism (and religion in America in general) has been heavily shaped by America’s culture and politics.

I agree with this. Most of the Founding Fathers, with a couple of exceptions ( a minister, for example) were not all that zealous in their Protestant practice. Moreover, William Penn, whose early charter for Pennsylvania colony included complete religious liberty for those living in that colony and also very much influenced the Founding Fathers when they drafted the Constitution, was a zealous Quaker fleeing Protestant persecution. Quakers just weren’t welcome anywhere in those days, the Anglicans didn’t like them and the Puritans in Massachusetts and Connecticut jailed them and banned them. Massachusetts ended up going even farther and physically mutilated and tortured Quakers and executed them. Consequently a lot of Quakers, and also a lot of early Catholics, ended up in Pennsylvania because of the religious freedom there.

I guess you could credit the Protestants like King Henry with creating religious liberty by simply persecuting group after group (the Catholics, the Puritans, the Quakers) until somebody (William Penn in this case) said “Enough already, let’s just have religious freedom for all”, and there were also civil liberty limitations as practiced by England which led the US to revolt and found the country in the first place, but to claim all of this is somehow driven by Protestantism is like, yeah, driven by the bad aspects of Protestantism…much like how the Jewish people made it to Egypt through the bad acts of Joseph’s brothers and then were inspired to leave Egypt by being persecuted there. It’s not like Protestantism shone a great light of tolerance and freedom.