Would you get a vaccine against HIV/AIDS?

[Xantippe]

Xantippe, in that case the vaccine would not be preventing mother-to-child transmission, but preventing the mother from getting AIDS in the first place. We were talking about risk factors for AIDS here, in the context of “would you get this vaccine or not if it existed”.

Yes–that’s kind of the point. If the mother gets the hypothetical vaccine, she won’t get HIV and she won’t transmit it to her child. If the prostitute gets the hypothetical vaccine, she won’t transmit it to her client who is working far from home, who won’t transmit it to his faithful wife, who won’t transmit it to their unborn child, etc.

The whole point of widespread vaccination against HIV would be to short-circuit that whole ugly chain.

 

[SpidersfromMars]

You’ve moved the bar here. Now you’re talking about “a promiscuous lifestyle”. As a parent, your goal should be that your child not have **any **sex at all until he/she is married, which is going to come after they’ve been an adult for some time. Of course you can’t control what an adult child does, but you should at least have instilled Catholic teachings on sex in them. How well they follow those teachings is ultimately up to them.?

Even if your child does follow Catholic teachings, there’s no guarantee that another person will follow them, or even obey the law. Hence my point about rape.

 

[savedbygrace71]

A common answer seems to be, I would get my child/myself the vaccine once it was proven safe.

1. Since Gardisil hasn’t been proven safe enough in my opinion, although I do surely agree with the scenarios laid out above, I won’t be vaccinating my boys.
2. Unless the as yet undeveloped HIV vaccine were also shown to be safe, I wouldn’t give it to my kids. If it were safe, proven effective, and past the point of testing, I would likely do it. However, I think it’s a mistake to compare it to Hep B.Why?
3. When I was in dental hygiene school, we learned about the concepts of viral load in blood borne pathogens. I’ve long since forgotten the numbers but it was to the effect of, in a pint of Hep B+ blood, there is a viral particle of hepB in every three blood cells. For a pint of HIV + blood, there is a viral particle in every 100 blood cells. It is simply not as dense and that is partly why it’s not as easy to catch. Also, HIV can’t survive when exposed to air. So a droplet of blood from an HIV patient is less frightening than you might expect. During surgery, yes, it’s very risky. But out in the world, not so much. Meanwhile Hep B can survive in a droplet for quite a while- days if I remember correctly.

So the Hep B vax is much more important to keep up to date than the imaginary HIV one I was the one who refused it for my newborn baby…but he is getting his first shot next week at his four year old visit. He won’t like me very much, but that’s ok! this is how we are doing it!

 

[EasterJoy]

You’ve moved the bar here. Now you’re talking about “a promiscuous lifestyle”. As a parent, your goal should be that your child not have **any **sex at all until he/she is married, which is going to come after they’ve been an adult for some time. Of course you can’t control what an adult child does, but you should at least have instilled Catholic teachings on sex in them. How well they follow those teachings is ultimately up to them.

An adult should have the maturity to realize that a single STD vaccine is not going to protect you against all the other STDs, and pregnancy, and the spiritual problems that come with sex outside of marriage. A child – does not. Telling your kid, “don’t have sex, but I think you might anyway, so here’s a vaccine against one STD” sends absolutely the wrong message.

Would you tell your child, “Hey, you shouldn’t cook methamphetamine in the garage, but just in case you do, I’ve installed venting fans so you won’t poison yourself. Oh, and I paid off the local crime boss so he won’t have you killed for selling drugs on his turf.” ?

You can get a virus accidentally. Someone can give you a virus by making you the victim of assault. Someone can give you a virus because you are trying to help them after an accident and you both have bleeding wounds. You can also get a virus by either sinning seriously ONCE or by marrying someone who committed ONE such sin–or was assaulted, or was in an unfortunate accident. If you get the vaccine, however, you can help to break the chain of unintended transmissions of serious diseases.

As a Catholic, you should be careful that your are not (in effect) teaching your children that people who commit mortal sins deserve to get deadly diseases or diseases that ruin their fertility or that they can pass on to their children. If there WERE a disease that one could only get by committing a mortal sin (and there is not), then a good Catholic physician would go out and find a vaccine for it. Having found a vaccine, good Catholic physicians would try to wipe out that disease. Good Catholics would do whatever they could do to keep the most awful sinners from getting those deadly diseases, lest those poor lost souls, for whom Our Lord thirsts so much that He died on the Cross, themselves die *before *they get a chance to repent and turn from their sins and receive the mercy and the life of grace Our Lord intends for them!

Let us not unintentionally talk about these vaccines as something that we won’t ever need because we have kept ourselves able to pray, “O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity - greedy, dishonest, adulterous…” That is not what we ought to be teaching our children. It does no good to keep them out of one deep ditch, only to help them aim straight for the one on the opposite side of the road, after all.

I am not implying that you are a Pharisee. I am cautioning you, however, that our children can draw lessons from us that we never intended to teach. When we teach our children a horror of sin, we must be careful that we do not think we are implying a repugnance for sinners. That would be a very unfortunate misunderstanding to put them into. We also do not want to teach them to rashly assume that people with the sorts of diseases that come from mortal sins must be unrepentant sinners. Maybe they got the disease without sin, or if with a sin, perhaps they have repented. We ought to teach our children to avoid rash judgment of others, and not just near occasions of physical sins. We have to teach them to avoid both.

 

[Iheartcoffee]

Your child could do everything “right” and still get exposed to HPV, Hepatitis, HIV, etc. by working in the medical field, working as a police officer, etc. Accidental needle sticks, a violent patient, etc. are unfortunately not completely uncommon even under the best circumstances. I’m all for reducing diseases in our society overall, because you really don’t necessarily have to do anything immoral to catch any of them.

The Good Samaritan in the Bible would have likely been exposed to a variety of diseases by just caring for the person in need.

People also underestimate the risk for accidental blood and bodily fluid exposure in contact sports.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

You can get a virus accidentally. Someone can give you a virus by making you the victim of assault. Someone can give you a virus because you are trying to help them after an accident and you both have bleeding wounds. You can also get a virus by either sinning seriously ONCE or by marrying someone who committed ONE such sin–or was assaulted, or was in an unfortunate accident. If you get the vaccine, however, you can help to break the chain of unintended transmissions of serious diseases.

As a Catholic, you should be careful that your are not (in effect) teaching your children that people who commit mortal sins deserve to get deadly diseases or diseases that ruin their fertility or that they can pass on to their children. If there WERE a disease that one could only get by committing a mortal sin (and there is not), then a good Catholic physician would go out and find a vaccine for it. Having found a vaccine, good Catholic physicians would try to wipe out that disease. Good Catholics would do whatever they could do to keep the most awful sinners from getting those deadly diseases, lest those poor lost souls, for whom Our Lord thirsts so much that He died on the Cross, themselves die *before *they get a chance to repent and turn from their sins and receive the mercy and the life of grace Our Lord intends for them!

Let us not unintentionally talk about these vaccines as something that we won’t ever need because we have kept ourselves able to pray, “O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity - greedy, dishonest, adulterous…” That is not what we ought to be teaching our children. It does no good to keep them out of one deep ditch, only to help them aim straight for the one on the opposite side of the road, after all.

I am not implying that you are a Pharisee. I am cautioning you, however, that our children can draw lessons from us that we never intended to teach. When we teach our children a horror of sin, we must be careful that we do not think we are implying a repugnance for sinners. That would be a very unfortunate misunderstanding to put them into. We also do not want to teach them to rashly assume that people with the sorts of diseases that come from mortal sins must be unrepentant sinners. Maybe they got the disease without sin, or if with a sin, perhaps they have repented. We ought to teach our children to avoid rash judgment of others, and not just near occasions of physical sins. We have to teach them to avoid both.

This is so perfectly said. Thank You

 

[on_the_hill]

Nope. You have to live an exceptionally depraved lifestyle to be at risk for AIDS, and I don’t.

I wouldn’t give my kids any STD vaccine – that’s like giving them permission to go out and have sex.

Don’t ever change, man. You’re too precious.

 

[on_the_hill]

HIV/AIDS vaccine—meh, probably not. My days of potential high risk are behind me. Plus, there are medications nowadays that can help, so I’d rely on that;. Now, a shingles vaccine? Oh yeah. I’m gonna get me one of those.

As for HPV, both of my daughters got them. We’ll probably do my son when the time comes.

There are many, many strains of HPV (20 or more?) and only two or three may lead to cervical cancer. So the actual cancer risk from HPV is statistically very low. Cervical cancer is also 100% curable if it’s caught in time. That being said, why risk it? Like others have said, you don’t have to have sexual intercourse to contract the disease. Skin to skin touching is what it takes. Ever notice how many scholastic wrestlers have warts on their fingers and hands? That’s HPV. Most people have been exposed to it. One figure put it at 80% of women under the age of 60.

Not long ago, HPV was the no.1 or no. 2 killer of women outside of the Western world. Maybe it still is, I haven’t checked. Two of Juan Peron’s wives, (including Evita) died of uterine cancer as a result of HPV.

 

[Royalist]

Yes–that’s kind of the point. If the mother gets the hypothetical vaccine, she won’t get HIV and she won’t transmit it to her child. If the prostitute gets the hypothetical vaccine, she won’t transmit it to her client who is working far from home, who won’t transmit it to his faithful wife, who won’t transmit it to their unborn child, etc.

The whole point of widespread vaccination against HIV would be to short-circuit that whole ugly chain.

But that wouldn’t short-circuit about all the other much more common STDs and blood-borne illnesses. And it wouldn’t do anything about all the other negative consequences of extramarital sex – kids without fathers, ruined marriages, broken families, mortal sin…

So it seems like the whole ugly chain is left intact, just 1% less risky.

If that. After all, we’re talking about a disease that is incredible rare in the straight population in the first world, which is almost all of us here on this forum. If the thread was about HPV or herpes instead of AIDS, it would be a lot more relevant.

You can get a virus accidentally. Someone can give you a virus by making you the victim of assault. Someone can give you a virus because you are trying to help them after an accident and you both have bleeding wounds.

Yeah. You can. It’s very unlikely.

Many vaccines aren’t recommended for all of the population, because of risk factors and cost. In the real world, nothing is free and 100% effective with no side effects. See, for instance, the HPV vaccine, which they don’t recommend above a certain age.

So how about an alternate question:

Would you get an AIDS vaccine if it cost you as much money as you (or your husband) make in half a day of work? Not your health plan or other people paying for it, but you paying out of your own pocket.

As a Catholic, you should be careful that your are not (in effect) teaching your children that people who commit mortal sins deserve to get deadly diseases or diseases that ruin their fertility or that they can pass on to their children.

For sure.

But at the same time, they should learn that sin has consequences in the material world, not just in eternity. And, even though you can repent of sin and be forgiven in Confession, the temporal consequences remain. The Sacrament can’t restore fertility that’s been destroyed by an STD. It can’t solve the problems caused by a man who fathers kids with three different women.

You want to give your kids need as many reasons as possible to live Christian lives, not just “God will be sad and send you to Hell if you don’t”.

 

[Xantippe]

But that wouldn’t short-circuit about all the other much more common STDs and blood-borne illnesses. And it wouldn’t do anything about all the other negative consequences of extramarital sex – kids without fathers, ruined marriages, broken families, mortal sin…

So it seems like the whole ugly chain is left intact, just 1% less risky.

So, what’s the problem?

If that. After all, we’re talking about a disease that is incredible rare in the straight population in the first world, which is almost all of us here on this forum. If the thread was about HPV or herpes instead of AIDS, it would be a lot more relevant.

**There’s a fair number of people from outside the US on CAF, including from countries where HIV is a big deal.

Also, even Americans travel or work abroad. I’m American, and I’ve lived a couple years in a country with very iffy blood supply safety and visited a few others. In case of an accident, who knows what kind of blood I would have gotten? Furthermore, being an American abroad is no guarantee against sexual assault. Rapists don’t say, “Oh, you’ve got a US passport, never mind!” In my Peace Corps training, we had a presentation from two different Peace Corps women who had been sexually assaulted during their service, one by a trusted colleague, one by a complete stranger. If anything, their nationality rendered them more interesting to their assailants.

**

So how about an alternate question:

Would you get an AIDS vaccine if it cost you as much money as you (or your husband) make in half a day of work? Not your health plan or other people paying for it, but you paying out of your own pocket.

For my kids, of course 80 years of coverage would be totally worth it. For me and my husband, yeah, if we were planning on travelling to some exotic location (which is very likely–we have strong ties to Eastern Europe). The expense would be the only obstacle–I’ll take pretty much any vaccine that’s offered and I’ve had some pretty exotic ones.

But at the same time, they should learn that sin has consequences in the material world, not just in eternity. And, even though you can repent of sin and be forgiven in Confession, the temporal consequences remain. The Sacrament can’t restore fertility that’s been destroyed by an STD. It can’t solve the problems caused by a man who fathers kids with three different women.

**Sure, but honestly, young people today in the US are not terrified by AIDS–it’s not like it was when I was a kid in the 1980s. 1) They’ve never known anybody with HIV and they’ve certainly never known anybody to die of AIDS 2) if they do, they probably know that there are medications to treat HIV and people live for decades with HIV 3) If you sin today, HIV isn’t going to kill you tomorrow–there’s such a big gap that it’s not motivating. And so on. Fear of HIV is really not a motivator in the US. **

You want to give your kids need as many reasons as possible to live Christian lives, not just “God will be sad and send you to Hell if you don’t”.

Nope.

As G.K. Chesterton said somewhere, it is much more wholesome for a young man to stick to chastity because of his veneration for the Blessed Virgin than because he’s got a morbid fear of venereal diseases.

A good person doesn’t need a lot of self-interested reasons to be virtuous.

And in fact, fear of HIV might well be an obstacle to a person pursuing their vocation. With an HIV vaccine, joining the police, working in a prison, being an ER doctor, serving in Africa as a missionary and so forth all become a little less scary.

 

[on_the_hill]

As G.K. Chesterton said somewhere, it is much more wholesome for a young man to stick to chastity because of his veneration for the Blessed Virgin than because he’s got a morbid fear of venereal diseases.

There’s a lot to this. Do we lead moral lives because it’s the right thing, or because we’re afraid of punishment?