Would you remain loyal to communion with Rome?

[KyivAndrew]

The ROC considers churches like the Kiev Patriarchate Orthodox, but they are uncanonical - a situation that calls for rectification. It would be far easier to resolve differences with the UOC-KP than it would be to resolve differences with the UGCC. For one thing, there are no theological issues, it’s all about discipline … and politics.

I think the ROC actually calls the KP Orthodox “schismatics”. In looking this up, I came across this gem from the archives of the Moscow Patriarch’s Ukrainian Orthodox Church’s Metropolitan Antoniy:

“Навіть Римо-Католицька Церква визнає лише нашу, канонічну Церкву в Україні та її Предстоятеля Блаженнішого Митрополита Володимира”,

which means “Even the Roman Catholic Church only recognizes our canonical Church in Ukraine and His Beatitude Metropolitan Volodymyr”.
archiv.orthodox.org.ua/page-471.html

Awe, the MP Orthodox turning to Rome for support in its arguments in an internal Orthodox canonical problem with the Ukrainian Orthodox Kyivan Patriarchate’s Filaret. Just a bit of irony, considering the views Russian Orthodoxy holds of the Catholic Church’s “schism” from “Holy Orthodoxy”, the validity of Catholic sacraments, etc.

sorry, just an aside

 

[Hesychios]

…
Those martyrs suffered for their Church in totum. This means that they defended their Church with its doctrines (Pope et alia) and also because, simply, it was THEIR Ukrainian Church. …
So yes the Papacy was what they suffered for, but that wasn’t the only thing they suffered for. They suffered because they didn’t want to reject who they and their ancestors were. …

I suspect that the Latinizations were also a powerful unifying factor.

BTW, I wonder how it is that in the L’viv region the overwhelming majority returned to the UGCC, but that does not appear to be the case with Mukachevo.

The English website for that eparchy indicates that it has about 25% of the population, a strong showing but not as much as I would have expected.

 

[ciero]

But would the Orthodox come into communion with a Church that is in communion with Rome? I’m sure Rome doesn’t have as much of a problem. I mean, there will still be issues, but the way things are today I can see Rome being more open to accepting into communion a Church that is in communion with the Orthodox, than the Orthodox accepting a Church that is in communion with Rome.

Met. Kalistos (Ware), wrote a paper a few years back proving the Kievan church was in Communion with both Rome & Constantinople until well into the 1700’s, I believe the paper was delivered the the Kievan church study group. I’m not sure who published the paper.

 

[ciero]

I suspect that the Latinizations were also a powerful unifying factor.

BTW, I wonder how it is that in the L’viv region the overwhelming majority returned to the UGCC, but that does not appear to be the case with Mukachevo.

The English website for that eparchy indicates that it has about 25% of the population, a strong showing but not as much as I would have expected.

I read a while back (cant remember where…old age sucks ) that most of those in Mukachavo who were loyal to Rome were dispersed throughout the Soviet Union. That may be the reason you don’t see a large Greek Catholic population.

 

[Volodymyr]

DILEMA

If you were in a country with a totalitarian regime which forced upon you a similar “choice,” (i.e., either remain loyal to Rome as a Latin Catholic, or prefer to preserve your Traditions in a Church controlled by a totalitarian regime), what would you do?

Very interesting dilema but it is also historical question because such a choice is more likely today choose between Christianity and Islam rather than type of Christian or between believer in God (Jew, Moslem, Christian) and atheist. However, this historical dilema also was problem for those orthodox in totalitarian Catholic countries (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) where Orthodox were forced to convert or to accept GrekoCatolic church. Many heroically stayed faithful to Holy Orthodoxy. But, so as not to inflame passions, this also would not be current problem.

 

[dcointin]

If my memory serves me, something similiar happened to the Ruthenian Catholics in Slovakia: they were forced to become Russian Orthodox.

Question 1: I think it’s hard to say that they were not forced into becoming Orthodox. The greater percentage of parishes that became Orthodox returned to Eastern Catholicism when it became legal to do so.

Question 2: I would think that a lot of the Ukrainians that were formerly Eastern Catholic and became Orthodox under the communist regime returned to Eastern Catholicism when it became legal. I do not know the statistics, but this is the supposition of what I’ve read elsewhere.

I would like to offer the following statistics in response to question two.

Total number of Ukranian Catholics by year:
1990: 707,940
2000: 5,159,633
2005: 4,268,577
2009: 4,311,934

cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

It would seem that the reason for the huge increase in Ukranian Catholic numbers from 1990 to 2000 would be the collapse of the Soviet Union and return of many people to the Catholic Church; I’m not sure however what caused the smaller decline from 2000 to 2005.

 

[Hesychios]

I would like to offer the following statistics in response to question two.

Total number of Ukranian Catholics by year:
1990: 707,940
2000: 5,159,633
2005: 4,268,577
2009: 4,311,934

cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

It would seem that the reason for the huge increase in Ukranian Catholic numbers from 1990 to 2000 would be the collapse of the Soviet Union and return of many people to the Catholic Church; I’m not sure however what caused the smaller decline from 2000 to 2005.

I don’t know but I think the decline after 2000 had to do with better counting methods.

The increase from 2005 to 2009 is just over 1% for the 4 year period. That is not much but it exceeds the birth rate of Ukraine proper and in it’s own way is commendable.

I don’t know how many of these Ukrainian Greek Catholics are actually outside of the mother country. Does anyone have a rough estimate?

 

[KyivAndrew]

I would like to offer the following statistics in response to question two.

Total number of Ukranian Catholics by year:
1990: 707,940
2000: 5,159,633
2005: 4,268,577
2009: 4,311,934

cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

It would seem that the reason for the huge increase in Ukranian Catholic numbers from 1990 to 2000 would be the collapse of the Soviet Union and return of many people to the Catholic Church; I’m not sure however what caused the smaller decline from 2000 to 2005.

Yes, the huge increase in Ukrainian Catholic numbers from 1990- is because the Soviet Union finally collapsed and, in the absence of communist persecution and with an Independent Ukraine, the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church became legal again and millions returned to their Church.

The 2000-2005 decrease so-to-speak just shows the hundreds of thousands who left Ukraine during the corrupt Kuchma regime of that time ruling Ukraine when many gave up on hope in prospering or surviving in Ukraine (this was before the Orange Revolution in Ukraine, which has now also ended with more political freedom but limited economic success, but that’s another story).

Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian Catholics left for temporary work in countries like Italy, Portugal, Spain, where their numbers are not visible in the linked-to chart. There they attend(ed) Ukrainian Catholic services in places like Rome, Fatima, etc. but they are not registered on the chart. In Italy and Portugal they have their own Ukrainian newspapers and communities now, but there are no statistics for Italy, Portugal, etc. Hence, the seeming “decrease”.

(For instance, if one watched today’s soccer game between the Ukrainian team Kyiv Dynamo (Ukraine’s capital city) against Braga, Portugal, in Portugal, one could see many blue and yellow Ukrainian flags at Braga’s stadium, as well as hear chants of Dy-na-mo on television).

A lot of these people are just hoping to return with their families to a prosperous, democratic, lawful Ukraine, but such does not appear to be the case right now with the current ruling thugocracy over there, sad to say. Oh, well, here’s hoping for better in the future for all people of Ukraine.

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Andrew,

Yes, the huge increase in Ukrainian Catholic numbers from 1990- is because the Soviet Union finally collapsed and, in the absence of communist persecution and with an independent Ukraine, the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church became legal again and millions returned to their Church.

The 2000-2005 decrease so-to-speak just shows the tens of thousands who left Ukraine during the corrupt Kuchma regime of that time ruling Ukraine when many gave up on hope in prospering or surviving in Ukraine (this was before the Orange Revolution in Ukraine, which has now also ended, but that’s another story).

Tens of thousands of Ukrainian Catholics left for temporary work in countries like Italy, Portugal, Spain, where their numbers are not visible in the linked-to chart. There they attend(ed) Ukrainian Catholic services in places like Rome, Fatima, etc. but they are not registered on the chart. In Italy and Portugal they have their own Ukrainian newspapers and communities now, but their numbers don’t appear on the chart as there are no statistics for Italy, Portugal, etc. Hence, the seeming “decrease”.

A lot of these people are just hoping to return to with their families to a prosperous, democratic, lawful Ukraine, but such is not the case now with the current ruling thugocracy over there, sad to say.

Actually, it does not appear to be tens of thousands, but around 900,000.

These people are supposed to be recorded as UGCC by any priest of whatever Catholic church who serves them, if they are still UGCC. I am rather surprised that such a large number could go unrecorded.

According to Migration Information Source, from the early nineties to 2004 almost 2.6MM Ukrainians left for other countries. Other figures show that a disproportionate number of these people leaving were ethnic Russians. According to the CIA fact page Ukrainian Greek Catholics are approximately 8% of the total population of Ukraine, so all things being equal one would expect (I suppose) about that percentage of emigrants to be Greek Catholics, or about 208,000 over 13 years.

There is no question that the rates of emigration were much higher in the early 90’s than the early 00’s, but even spread evenly over 13 years this would be about 16,000 per year. Even if we doubled that for arguments sake, at 32,000 per year we could achieve a figure of 160,000 in five years, and at least some of these should be recorded in their overseas locations as UGCC members if they are still practicing Catholics somewhere.

Between 1991 and 2004, the government counted 2,537,400 individuals who emigrated; 1,897,500 moved to other post-Soviet states, and 639,900 moved to other, mainly Western, states.

The Ukrainian government abolished all exit restrictions in January 1993, and, in February 1994, the “Law on the Order of Exit from Ukraine and Entrance to Ukraine for the Citizens of Ukraine” was adopted. It guaranteed Ukrainian citizens the right to freely depart and return to its territory. Additional guarantees of free movement are provided by the 2003 “Law on Freedom of Movement and Free Choice of Residence in Ukraine.”

As a result of the liberalization of the emigration regime, the democratization of public life, and the demise of political, religious, and ethnic causes of emigration, the number of people emigrating from Ukraine has decreased by almost five times since the early 1990s. In 1991, 310,200 individuals left the country (236,600 moved to other post-Soviet states and 73,600 to other countries). However, in 2004, only 46,200 emigrated — 28,900 to CIS states and 17,300 to other states.

It looks from demographic figures as though western Ukriane has had only a slight population decline in those years (other areas of Ukraine fared much worse, and the general trend continues downward).

I am not saying your argument has no merit on some level, but there has to be another explanation.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Hi Andrew, Actually, it does not appear to be tens of thousands, but around 900,000.

These people are supposed to be recorded as UGCC by any priest of whatever Catholic church who serves them, if they are still UGCC. I am rather surprised that such a large number could go unrecorded.

Actually, Michael I edited my post to “hundreds of thousands” as you can see above in my edited post. The thing with people going to countries of the EU to work from non-EU countries like Ukraine is that not every Ukrainian worker is going to “register” necessarily with where they might have to register, and they might return to Ukraine during the year (hence, they are not “emigrants” necessarily but seasonal workers, or on work visas).

If some travel to work in Russia, well there there is no right really to start any Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church in today’s Russian state. (heck, the Ukrainian Education Center in Moscow was closed down by the Russian government not too long ago, despite the number of Ukrainians in Russia).

There is also the matter of demographic loss in population in countries which formerly belonged to the Soviet Union, which is another issue.

 

[MontChevalier]

Well I’m not really an Eastern Catholic, (I barely know much about Eastern Catholicism) but if I had to be forced into believing what the state wants me to believe, rather than what I truly feel, well, I’d feel like I’m lying to God. And that wouldn’t be right. =/

Although, I picked leaving the country and preserving my traditions. I know that may sound cowardly, but even the first Christians wouldn’t stay where they were, even when Saint Paul was hunting them down they were all running away from one thing or another. I’m sure it’s understandable to want to leave to live a better life on Earth.

BUT! Since I like the Military strategies and other some and such stories, I’ll put it this way. It’s more like a…regrouping, re-assessing and then counterattacking. If I do leave, it’s so I can come back like a Conquering Hero.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

But would the Orthodox come into communion with a Church that is in communion with Rome? I’m sure Rome doesn’t have as much of a problem. I mean, there will still be issues, but the way things are today I can see Rome being more open to accepting into communion a Church that is in communion with the Orthodox, than the Orthodox accepting a Church that is in communion with Rome.

That is not true at all.

I think it is true, Hesychios. As much as you disagree with the Catholic idea of where our two churches stand in relation to each other, you’ve nonetheless seen plenty of examples of it - that basic denial of ours that disagreements on the filioque, “purgatory,” ecclesiology, etc. are substantive enough to constitute barriers to unity.

Especially in light of the fact that there is no one list of which churches are a part of the Orthodox Church - which is the one that the EP accepts but the MP doesn’t? - I’m comfortable asserting that it in no way strains credulity to suggest that the Catholic Church would not be unwilling to welcome into her fold a sui iuris church that some other Orthodox church nonetheless considers in communion with it.

Surely you can see that?

The argument demolishes the Zoghby Initiative, which suggests that such a demand is unnecessary.

Can the Zoghby Initiative reasonably be said to posit that such a demand is unnecessary, or isn’t it rather that it posits such a demand to be redundant in light of the true collegial meaning of universal papal jurisdiction?

(don’t get me wrong, I agree with Rome about the Zoghby Initiative for prudence’s sake, but I still don’t think your above statement was quite fair to the Zoghby Initiative)

I view the “papal dogmas of AD1870,” as you call them, as “new” only in the sense that the Assumption of Mary was “new” to Catholics in AD 1950.

But then, maybe that’s why I’m Catholic.

Met. Kalistos (Ware), wrote a paper a few years back proving the Kievan church was in Communion with both Rome & Constantinople until well into the 1700’s, I believe the paper was delivered the the Kievan church study group. I’m not sure who published the paper.

That’s fascinating, ciero! I’d love to read that some time if I can find it.