Wouldn't Joseph have known?

[Leferdion]

Hope you read my full post. The Angel could not have appeared to Joseph immediately after the annunciation because Mary left to visit Elizabeth immediately after and we do not know exactly how long she stayed there before getting back (could be 2-3 months). It was probably a journey on donkey back which lasted days or weeks from Nazareth up North to Hebron down South. After such a long journey we would not expect Mary to spend just a couple of days there. She would stay there longer.
How would Joseph have known Mary was pregnant if the pregnancy was just a few days old and Mary did not tell him? From scripture it is made clear that the angel appears to Joseph after Joseph starts contemplating annuling the engagement with Mary. There is a chronological order of events.
And yes, the angel appeared before the marriage was consumated. But we all know that an engaged couple in jewish custom at that time had to live for close to a year separately before consumating their marriage and living together. So we could be talking of a matter of many months here from the event of the annunciation till when the angel appears to Joseph.

 

[Leferdion]

I agree with you but we should not also underestimate how versed some people at the time of Jesus were with the Torah. It was just a matter of what lense they used to interprete the messianic prophecies. Because of the roman occupation at that time, many jews let their emotions overcome them and chose to see the Messiah as one with political and war might who will liberate them from roman occupation and make Israel great again among other nations. It does not however mean that the messianic prophecies in Isaiah for example were not clear on how the Christ will be a simple poor man whose fate was to be killed. Most jews just chose not to see Him that way. It is thesame today with how many christian denominations cherry pick bible verses and interprete them to suit their at times wrong views of things.

As for demons not knowing the plan, demons do not know everything. Even though the messiah’s death and resurrection was prophecised, God hid his divine plan from them although it was unravelling before their very eyes, because He had to push it through till the end. God has that power to block information or close eyes. He has done it many times in Scripture. Another thing we should take note of is that the Christ chose to be incarnated in the flesh in a very poor and humble family. Through that humility of His, He was shielded from notice of the Devil, who does not go near the humble (that is why the devil is shown to always flee from Mary, because the devil is pride, and Mary is humility). It is the devil who tried to kill Jesus as a baby through Herod, but that happened only after the 3 wise men had visited and news had spread that the messiah/king of the Jews was born. Only through this means did it come to satan’s attention. And even so Satan did not know exactly who Jesus was. If he had known, he would have tried to kill Jesus even in Egypt. At times we think demons have more power than they realy do. They dont. And humility is the most powerful repellant of demons. So there was a veil put up on the demonic realm till Jesus manifested Himself as Son of God during His baptism. That is when Satan knew Him in the flesh and could tempt Him in the desert.

 

[EndTimes]

The Angel could not have appeared to Joseph immediately after the annunciation because Mary left to visit Elizabeth immediately after and we do not know exactly how long she stayed there before getting back (could be 2-3 months). It was probably a journey

This is speculation based upon speculation upon speculation…

Is there anything of significant importance connected with this topic?

_

 

[Leferdion]

It is not speculation based upon speculation. There is some logic to it. If you take note of one of my very first posts on the topic, you will realise I emphasised that despite Mary suffering for being looked upon as a possible adulteress by her fiancee, she trusted God and said nothing to Joseph and God took care of it by informing Joseph directly through an angel. So if we are to learn a lesson or anything from the topic of the OP, it could be that we should trust God in all things, in all circumstances, and let God take care of the rest

 

[EndTimes]

Did you think that that hypothetical question would’ve been of any meaningful importance to say a Christian, whom IMO, never concern themselves with hypotheticals such as that question re: Joseph?

It’s been asked and it’s been answered.

 

[Leferdion]

Of course not. Most of us here know the gospels well, some of us not as well, some may be at the start of their christian journey, others may not even be christian. Everything we need to know concerning the nativity narrative is clearly spelled out in the gospels. But the OP asked a question, he/she probably needed clarifications, we do not know how versed the OP is with the bible or christian doctrine. So we try to answer as best as we can right?

 

[EndTimes]

So we try to answer as best as we can right?

And we did, yes?

 

[Beryllos]

It’s been asked and it’s been answered.

That has never kept a thread from going on for hundreds more posts, and sometimes for good reasons.

 

[EndTimes]

That has never kept a thread from going on for hundreds more posts, and sometimes for good reasons.

I don’t necesarily agree at all with the “sometimes for good reasons”

_

 

[Beryllos]

I thought you were saying the question was answered, but that’s for the OP to say. At this point, someone may have more to contribute and I’m fine with that.

 

[Beryllos]

or being from a place that is despised. (Can anything good come from Nazareth? John 1:46)

Not necessarily despised. My understanding has been that Nazareth was regarded as an insignificant town, as today we might say “Can anything good come from Akron?”

… with apologies to the good people of Akron, Ohio!

 

[EndTimes]

I thought you were saying the question was answered, but that’s for the OP to say.

Some of the arguments attempting to support a notion that Joseph did not know - were clearly refuted…

 

[Beryllos]

You say the question has been answered and arguments contrary to your own have been clearly refuted. I disagree.

When Scripture is silent on a particular point, you can speculate and I can speculate, and therefore we have several answers and no refutation.

 

[Gorgias]

Joseph was a royal descendent of David. Biblically, he was the King of Israel.

Umm… no. He had royal blood, but he wasn’t a king. (That would be like asserting that all the princes of England are kings. They’re not. They’re royals.)

It is not said exactly how long Mary stayed with Elizabeth in Hebron

“Mary remained with her about three months and then returned to her home.” (Lk 1:56)

I don’t know how much more ‘exact’ we’d expect to see. (I’m with you, though, that “about three months” seems to place Mary there through the time that Elizabeth gave birth.)

Then when she gets back, he observes she is pregnant (people can notice changes in a 3 month pregnancy)

If she’s “about three months” pregnant (from the time spent with Elizabeth) plus travel time to and from the hill country, then Mary was around four months pregnant when Joseph first caught sight of her!

Of course Mary now knows Joseph knows about the pregnancy. But does not tell him anyway the truth about the origin of the pregnancy. She suffers silently.

That’s kind of speculative, don’t you think?

Well, not quite, but a common misconception.

Yes … and before their marriage.

They were already considered ‘married’ (that’s why Joseph was considering divorce, and not just breaking an engagement).

This is speculation based upon speculation upon speculation…

Nah. Not really. The angel appeared to Joseph only after he had knowledge of the pregnancy. Also, we know that Mary was with Elizabeth “about three months”. We also know that she couldn’t call for an Uber and jet right up there to the hill country, so it was quite a journey for a young girl.

That has never kept a thread from going on for hundreds more posts

My understanding has been that Nazareth was regarded as an insignificant town, as today we might say “Can anything good come from Akron?”

I wouldn’t expect a Christmas card from LeBron James anymore, if I were you.

 

[EndTimes]

Yes… it is so.

Some of the arguments attempting to support a notion that Joseph did not know - were clearly refuted…

Let us recall too… that Joseph was the guardian of Mary and Jesus Son of God

 

[Leferdion]

I forgot the duration of the stay in Hebron was mentioned in the gospel of Luke

 

[EndTimes]

Of course St. Joseph would have known…