Yahweh and Allah: Same God or different?

[urban1976]

To use the argument that Muslims don’t believe in the same god because they don’t believe in the trinity or Jesus is a pretty faulty argument at best. The jews don’t believe in our trinity with Jesus Christ as God either. Would you then say that the jews don’t believe in the same God we do? That is obviously wrong as Jesus is the fulfillment of everything that jews believe. I think it would be more logical that muslims believe lies and falsehoods about the God of Abraham. I’ve always thought that the spirit that gave mohammad the koran was probably a demon of some sort.

 

[Kadaveri]

I find it really amazing that there are so many Catholics on this site who seem to have no qualms with going against their own Church and Pope (nevermind plain common sense) so they can preach that Muslims don’t worship the same God as Christians do. I just don’t get it. If you really do think Muslims worship a “different” God then why don’t you go join a Protestant Evangelical sect who do believe that sort of thing? Clearly you don’t respect the Church’s authority on theological matters.

I honestly don’t understand you guys at all, sorry.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I find it really amazing that there are so many Catholics on this site who seem to have no qualms with going against their own Church and Pope (nevermind plain common sense) so they can preach that Muslims don’t worship the same God as Christians do. I just don’t get it.

I get it. There are many non-practicing catholics around. Non-practicing catholics use common sense more than blind faith. And common sense suggests that policies that contradict each other could not come from the same person.

 

[urban1976]

I get it. There are many non-practicing catholics around. Non-practicing catholics use common sense more than blind faith. And common sense suggests that policies that contradict each other could not come from the same person.

In a sarcastic way I think that is actually true in this case. Protestants believe in the same God as Catholics, but go about worshiping to verying degrees of wrongness. Muslims while “worshiping” the same god, have been fooled by lies about what that very God is and what he wants from them/us. Take my kids for instance, they obviously have the same parents. When a couple of them were very little, one had convinced her (sadly older ) sister that we wanted her to do X. She did so thinking she was doing very good by us. She got in trouble (as humans we aren’t all knowing) until she was ratted out. She was following the “will” of the same parent, yet was completely doing what we did NOT want her to do. It is the same situation here. They have been fooled into believing a multitude of falsehoods about their creator.
I find it is very foolhardy when people think their own “common sense” is absolute truth. Too often people think WAY too much of their own “common sense” and it is very faulty logic. Trying to insinuate you could only believe in these things by “blind faith”, is only throwing out a red herring to make someone question where there wasn’t a question before because there isn’t enough real argument to put forth. Some of the greatest thinkers of our time have been catholics and their knowledge only strengthens their believes.

 

[Verisimilitude]

But, it does. Here’s the link:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

It’s in paragraph 17.

The sentence acknowledges the claim that they profess a faith from Abraham. That part, though is a subordinate clause that can be removed without affecting the meaning of the sentence. So, if you take that clause out, you get “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

Why would I take out what is there? I think the word “profess” means what it is generally regarded to mean which still does not convey authority/legitimacy to what is being professed. Because we share humanity with all men to include Muslims we seek to build a common bridge where none exist such as the words Mohammed spoke in the name of God as noted in the Qur’an.

As a religion Islam breaks no new ground where it already agrees with both the OT and NT. Monotheism and a day of Judgement was known to Mohammed and Arabia. Where it disagrees it is rejected and so it all is rejected as nothing significant to further our understanding of God. Muslims are correct about the One-ness of God and a Last Day, and they share in the inheritence of being a grain of sand like of all Abrahams children by birth if not faith.

There is a picture of JP the Great kissing a Qur’an. Some Muslims here have said it shows the Pope acknowledging the Qur’ans authority. It blew me away when I first saw it and at first I rationalized it by thinking it must be the same God for the Pontiff to do such a thing. It didn’t make sense but I accepted it~sort of.

Since there is only One God and a Last Day and a diverse family that makes up the people of the God of Abraham by believeing in that God- the Pope if anyone is bound to always acknowledge that for its own sake. That was the reverence he showed the Qur’an by kissing it, and the limit the Church acknowledges Islam.

David Marsh posted :

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Jesus told the Jewish leaders the reason they did not recognize Him though they also professed Abraham as Patriarch was because they believed in God wrongly. The plan of salvation begins with knowing God rightly. Unlike Muslims, at least the Jews had the right words of God to read and follow though they were not seemingly.

Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham. Do they, as Catholics understand the faith of Abraham? Catholics generally agree with the Jews on the OT interpretations. The Qur’an disagrees with both. The Qur’an acknowledges the goodness of Jesus, His miracles and gives honor to Mary in some ways though it denies our Doctrine and Dogma regarding both.

Islam cannot/will not be ignored, so with Wisdom the Church acknowledges those similarities for the honor they are due regardless of where they are found without acknowledging it’s legitimacy in the same way we hate the sin but love the sinner.

 

[jkatpc]

Why would I take out what is there? I think the word “profess” means what it is generally regarded to mean which still does not convey authority/legitimacy to what is being professed. Because we share humanity with all men to include Muslims we seek to build a common bridge where none exist such as the words Mohammed spoke in the name of God as noted in the Qur’an.

As a religion Islam breaks no new ground where it already agrees with both the OT and NT. Monotheism and a day of Judgement was known to Mohammed and Arabia. Where it disagrees it is rejected and so it all is rejected as nothing significant to further our understanding of God. Muslims are correct about the One-ness of God and a Last Day, and they share in the inheritence of being a grain of sand like of all Abrahams children by birth if not faith.

There is a picture of JP the Great kissing a Qur’an. Some Muslims here have said it shows the Pope acknowledging the Qur’ans authority. It blew me away when I first saw it and at first I rationalized it by thinking it must be the same God for the Pontiff to do such a thing. It didn’t make sense but I accepted it~sort of.

Since there is only One God and a Last Day and a diverse family that makes up the people of the God of Abraham by believeing in that God- the Pope if anyone is bound to always acknowledge that for its own sake. That was the reverence he showed the Qur’an by kissing it, and the limit the Church acknowledges Islam.

David Marsh posted :

Jesus told the Jewish leaders the reason they did not recognize Him though they also professed Abraham as Patriarch was because they believed in God wrongly. The plan of salvation begins with knowing God rightly. Unlike Muslims, at least the Jews had the right words of God to read and follow though they were not seemingly.

Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham. Do they, as Catholics understand the faith of Abraham? Catholics generally agree with the Jews on the OT interpretations. The Qur’an disagrees with both. The Qur’an acknowledges the goodness of Jesus, His miracles and gives honor to Mary in some ways though it denies our Doctrine and Dogma regarding both.

Islam cannot/will not be ignored, so with Wisdom the Church acknowledges those similarities for the honor they are due regardless of where they are found without acknowledging it’s legitimacy in the same way we hate the sin but love the sinner.

You can take out the clause because, syntactically, it modifies but does not substantiate the main sentence. IOW, the sentence makes the same sense with the clause or without it. The verb “profess”, when used in the clause, only refers to the things inside that clause. In any case, the excerpt from the catechism that Daniel Marsh posted is clearer even than Lumen Gentium.

Nobody says you have to legitimize a religion when you recognize truths inside it. We don’t accept as truth much of what Islam professes, but do recognize that they do worship the same God. I don’t disagree with almost everything else you say; but, just because they don’t believe in Him just like we do doesn’t mean they don’t believe in Him. You can’t impute the fallacious undertanding of God on God; He is who He is, regardless of how anyone understands Him. They understand Him poorly, but worship Him nonetheless. If all they recognized was that He is the creator and there are no other gods besides Him, the would recognize the same God as we do, but not as completely.

 

[traditionMike]

Thank you all for your wonderful replies. I will let you know how the debate unfolds.

Please, if you have anything else to say, say it. Anything about this subject will only strengthen my words at the debate. Even though im on the side i don’t necessarily believe to be true, knowing what the opposing side believes in will help me to defend that which i was selected to defend.

God Bless

 

[HashemEchad]

Im in a debate for a religion class. I am on the side saying that Yahweh and Allah are NOT the same God. How can back my position up? How can i defend it?

I once asked a Chasidic Rebbe this question: he said the God of Judaism and the God of Islam are the same.

 

[ralphinal]

I once asked a Chasidic Rebbe this question: he said the God of Judaism and the God of Islam are the same.

From your perspective, why is there such a difference in the understanding of God and the stories in the Koran vs the Torah?

 

[HashemEchad]

From your perspective, why is there such a difference in the understanding of God and the stories in the Koran vs the Torah?

Muslims believe that Jews and Christians both distorted and corrupted the teachings of the Bible, that Mohammed (naturally) came to purify everything.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I once asked a Chasidic Rebbe this question: he said the God of Judaism and the God of Islam are the same.

yes there are far greater similarities between the two. but what do you think? are they the same?

 

[HashemEchad]

yes there are far greater similarities between the two. but what do you think? are they the same?

I believe the God the Muslims worship is the same God Jews worship, yes. They just don’t realize it. After all, there is only ONE God, and anyone who worships one, invisible God is worshipping, IMO, the God of Israel.

Because the Christians regard their deity as having three persons, that creates a problem. I personally tend to see it as Muslims do (and so did Maimonides and other Jewish commentators). But it doesn’t matter to me, since Catholics, being Gentiles, are not commanded to worship One God as Jews are.

 

[AgnosTheist]

^ If Allah is God, then what do Jews believe about the Quran? Is it from YHWH?

 

[HashemEchad]

^ If Allah is God, then what do Jews believe about the Quran? Is it from YHWH?

No, we don’t believe their scriptures are of divine origin, what I meant is that we believe that they are worshipping our God even if they don’t realize it.

My mom used to have this saying, “We all worship the same God, but call Him by different names”. I think in the case of Muslims and Jews this is true.

 

[Verisimilitude]

You can take out the clause because, syntactically, it modifies but does not substantiate the main sentence. IOW, the sentence makes the same sense with the clause or without it. The verb “profess”, when used in the clause, only refers to the things inside that clause. In any case, the excerpt from the catechism that Daniel Marsh posted is clearer even than Lumen Gentium.

Muslims often argue I misunderstand the Quran because classical Arabic has nuance to words like kill and fight that somehow make them more palletable when understood in that language alone. I argue back that God would not make understanding Him more difficult than needs to be which is why the Gospels are translated in many languages and still the basic truth of any interpretation is basically sufficient to understanding Christ. KISS (keep it simple, stupid- no, I’m not calling you stupid)

Nobody says you have to legitimize a religion when you recognize truths inside it. We don’t accept as truth much of what Islam professes, but do recognize that they do worship the same God. I don’t disagree with almost everything else you say; but, just because they don’t believe in Him just like we do doesn’t mean they don’t believe in Him. You can’t impute the fallacious undertanding of God on God; He is who He is, regardless of how anyone understands Him. They understand Him poorly, but worship Him nonetheless. If all they recognized was that He is the creator and there are no other gods besides Him, the would recognize the same God as we do, but not as completely.

That makes no sense whatsoever. If the math book you study always says 2+2=5 even though it also says 3+2=5 would you want your kids studying it because it gets somethings right? Religion and faith are not as clear cut as simple math, but true is true and false is false.

If I said I knew your father and told you he was a drunk and womanizer when in reality he is neither would you still say I know your father? If I convinced others to believe me about your father would the reputation of your father suffer even though I accurately described the number of kids he had? How would you feel about me going on a speaking tour to describe your father my way? Even if I got 99% of it factually right about your father, but soiled his reputation in other ways I find it hard to believe you would not demand I stop and say to me and others I did not know your father at all or would you say I understad him poorly? Maybe I lied or was lied to about your father.

I do not deny the obvious; Muslims profess to worship the God of Abraham, and agree with some basic concepts of God as we understand them. So what?

I do not deny the obvious; allah of the quran contradicts much more than agrees with the God of Abraham in the Torah.

The OP is specific: are they the same God? The words of each diety sugguest they are not. What they profess about it is not relevant to the truth of it. Look at John McCain. He says he is a conservative. He isn’t.

 

[jkatpc]

Muslims often argue I misunderstand the Quran because classical Arabic has nuance to words like kill and fight that somehow make them more palletable when understood in that language alone. I argue back that God would not make understanding Him more difficult than needs to be which is why the Gospels are translated in many languages and still the basic truth of any interpretation is basically sufficient to understanding Christ. KISS (keep it simple, stupid- no, I’m not calling you stupid)

That makes no sense whatsoever. If the math book you study always says 2+2=5 even though it also says 3+2=5 would you want your kids studying it because it gets somethings right? Religion and faith are not as clear cut as simple math, but true is true and false is false.

If I said I knew your father and told you he was a drunk and womanizer when in reality he is neither would you still say I know your father? If I convinced others to believe me about your father would the reputation of your father suffer even though I accurately described the number of kids he had? How would you feel about me going on a speaking tour to describe your father my way? Even if I got 99% of it factually right about your father, but soiled his reputation in other ways I find it hard to believe you would not demand I stop and say to me and others I did not know your father at all or would you say I understad him poorly? Maybe I lied or was lied to about your father.

I do not deny the obvious; Muslims profess to worship the God of Abraham, and agree with some basic concepts of God as we understand them. So what?

I do not deny the obvious; allah of the quran contradicts much more than agrees with the God of Abraham in the Torah.

The OP is specific: are they the same God? The words of each diety sugguest they are not. What they profess about it is not relevant to the truth of it. Look at John McCain. He says he is a conservative. He isn’t.

WRT the first part: I’m assuming English is your first language, as it is mine. We have rules in grammar that have to be followed in order for us to express what we think in writing. The vatican knows this and I am sure they do a good job proof reading. My grammatical analysis of that part of Lumen Gentium is correct.

I think we are in violent agreement here, but don’t know it. We both recognize that they ascribe very different characteristics and revelation about and from God than we do. We have to believe they are wrong and we are right. It doesn’t have to do with hurting their feelings; if we believed exactly as they believe, there wouldn’t be any “them” and “us”. In your examples, both the numeral five and my father are recognized as the correct answers by both parties doing the ascription. The fact that 2+2 doesn’t equal five doesn’t mean that five isn’t the answer they are supposed to come up with; their computation is wrong but their answer is right. Maybe in the end, we will have to show our work.

The OP’s original question is specific: are they the same God? Yes. Do we understand him the same way? No. Your logic would imply that Jews don’t worship the same God either, since they neither recognize him as Trinitarian nor do they recognized the divinity of Jesus. They have a step up over Islam in that the Torah is divinely inspired, but incomplete in its revelation. Taking this further, fundamentalists have a different understanding of God’s mercy and justice than we do (OSAS, damnation of those who don’t explicitly accept Jesus as personal saviour, etc.). Do they worship a different God?

I totally agree with your conservative example.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Try to observe linguistic similarities between “Eloah,” and “Elohim,” and “Allaha,” and “Allah.”

Try researching among Arab Jews and their opinion on the name “Allah” in the Arabic language.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

To use the argument that Muslims don’t believe in the same god because they don’t believe in the trinity or Jesus is a pretty faulty argument at best. The jews don’t believe in our trinity with Jesus Christ as God either. Would you then say that the jews don’t believe in the same God we do? That is obviously wrong as Jesus is the fulfillment of everything that jews believe. I think it would be more logical that muslims believe lies and falsehoods about the God of Abraham. I’ve always thought that the spirit that gave mohammad the koran was probably a demon of some sort.

Christians would say we worship the same God as the Jews do, just we know more about Him.
Jews would say we do not, that we believe lies and falsehoods about God.

Muslims say very definitely that God is not our Father.

All three faiths worship God as Creator.

If you say that we all worship the same God because there is only really one God that exists, you might as well say that anyone who worships God in whatever form they understand him worship the same God. This isn’t true.

Do Mormons worship the same God Catholics do?
Their god has wives and children. Their Jesus is only one of God’s sons. Their idea of God is so different that the Catholic church doesn’t even recognize their baptism even tho it uses the trinitarian formula.

I agree with you that the spirit who spoke to Muhammad and to Joseph Smith was not of God. Only the Jewish and Christian faith was revealed by God. Only Jews and Christians worship the true God. I don’t think this can be proven in debate.

For the debate, I would define who Allah is by a Muslim definition and who Yahweh is by a Jewish definition and then show these descriptions are so different as to indicate different persons.

BTW I believe Jews call God Adonai (Lord) because Jews don’t speak the name of God. Christians don’t usually call God Yahweh either although that name is indicated in the OT.

I think the proposition of this debate is misleading. Who are you comparing Allah to? The God of the Jews or the God of the Christians?

 

[Verisimilitude]

Maybe in the end, we will have to show our work.

Maybe. I generally think of it as the Parable of the Talents.

The OP’s original question is specific: are they the same God? Yes.

I’ll go this far. It is the same God by default in that there is only One.

Do we understand him the same way? No.

Agreed.

Your logic would imply that Jews don’t worship the same God either, since they neither recognize him as Trinitarian nor do they recognized the divinity of Jesus. They have a step up over Islam in that the Torah is divinely inspired, but incomplete in its revelation.

KISS. I will agree only if you keep your own belief in theory mode to compare them and forget that Islam says the Tora has been corrupted when my faith does not. When accepted as fact and true as a Catholic we believe everything the Jews believe about God. The first Followers were Jews because it was limited to Jews during Christs ministry. The remnent Jews today cling to tradition despite reality. About a third of all peopel on Earth call them selves Christian/Catholic. About a sixth each Muslim and Hindu. The remaining third believe other/none and I would guess a large % of them know of about Christ, Abraham, Moses, and/or Mohammed. Jews today make up less than one quarter of one % to about 13-15 million in the world. It’s not theory.

Taking this further, fundamentalists have a different understanding of God’s mercy and justice than we do (OSAS, damnation of those who don’t explicitly accept Jesus as personal saviour, etc.). Do they worship a different God?

By simple acknowledgement there are no gods but God. When I say allah of the Qur’an is not the same god as God I mean simply by source of inspiration. The God that spoke to Abraham and Moses was realized in Jesus. What inspired Mohammed was not of God unless it be the snake nipping at Eve’s heel since all things have their origin in God.

The Qur’an is 23 years of an inspiration though I suspect it was less than constant actual spirit influence and more Mohammed himself as time went on. Do the Gospels contradict the Torah in any way other than calling them completed? Fundamentalists…Luther…blahhh. There are different levels of corruption. Some are internal and some external. Some are more benign than others. Hindu’s, Mormons, and Agnostics don’t have sacred texts specifically denying Christ like Islam. Scientoligists and others make no claim to the God of Abraham like Islam. The philosophy of Bhuddah and peacefull maxims attributed to Confusius may well reflect the image we share naturally with God though they do not claim it like Islam does.

I totally agree with your conservative example.

My denying they are they same God does not diminish God just because the spirit that led Mohammed believe it was speaking for God, lied.

When I believe this is the author of the Quran and doing exactly what he claims in it by inspiring the Qur’an how can I say they are the same God?

(Iblees (Satan)) said: “See? This one whom You have honoured above me, if You give me respite (keep me alive) to the Day of Resurrection, I will surely seize and mislead his offspring (by sending them astray) all but a few!”
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #62)

Demons praise it.

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "It has been revealed to me that a group (from three to ten in number) of Jinns listened (to this Quran). They said: Verily! We have heard a wonderful Recital (this Quran)!
( سورة الجن , Al-Jinn, Chapter #72, Verse #1)

The same god as God?

And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me took effect (about evildoers), that I will fill Hell with Jinn and mankind together.
( سورة السجدة , As-Sajda, Chapter #32, Verse #13)

Muslims certainly have a misunderstanding of God because the god allah of the Qur’an misled them. I do not dispute the oneness of God like the Muslims believe God to be and if it could be asked of God by Muslims; ‘did you say the Qura’an’, God I think would reply He did not. It was not Him. That is why they are not the same.

Muslims are children of God no different than me, and though their daily prayers may be made with humble intent to the God of Abraham because of an illigitimate claim of prophethood, the god they serve as slave is a myth. Following the words of allah of the Quran to reach salvation is like letting Ted Bundy give your sister a ride home. Bad move.

I think God is much more compassionate and forgiving than allah of the Qur’an so I won’t be as surprised as they will to see who shares heaven with us.

BTW, thanks for serving.

 

[jkatpc]

Maybe. I generally think of it as the Parable of the Talents.

I’ll go this far. It is the same God by default in that there is only One.

Agreed.

KISS. I will agree only if you keep your own belief in theory mode to compare them and forget that Islam says the Tora has been corrupted when my faith does not. When accepted as fact and true as a Catholic we believe everything the Jews believe about God. The first Followers were Jews because it was limited to Jews during Christs ministry. The remnent Jews today cling to tradition despite reality. About a third of all peopel on Earth call them selves Christian/Catholic. About a sixth each Muslim and Hindu. The remaining third believe other/none and I would guess a large % of them know of about Christ, Abraham, Moses, and/or Mohammed. Jews today make up less than one quarter of one % to about 13-15 million in the world. It’s not theory.

By simple acknowledgement there are no gods but God. When I say allah of the Qur’an is not the same god as God I mean simply by source of inspiration. The God that spoke to Abraham and Moses was realized in Jesus. What inspired Mohammed was not of God unless it be the snake nipping at Eve’s heel since all things have their origin in God.

The Qur’an is 23 years of an inspiration though I suspect it was less than constant actual spirit influence and more Mohammed himself as time went on. Do the Gospels contradict the Torah in any way other than calling them completed? Fundamentalists…Luther…blahhh. There are different levels of corruption. Some are internal and some external. Some are more benign than others. Hindu’s, Mormons, and Agnostics don’t have sacred texts specifically denying Christ like Islam. Scientoligists and others make no claim to the God of Abraham like Islam. The philosophy of Bhuddah and peacefull maxims attributed to Confusius may well reflect the image we share naturally with God though they do not claim it like Islam does.

My denying they are they same God does not diminish God just because the spirit that led Mohammed believe it was speaking for God, lied.

When I believe this is the author of the Quran and doing exactly what he claims in it by inspiring the Qur’an how can I say they are the same God?

Demons praise it.

The same god as God?

Muslims certainly have a misunderstanding of God because the god allah of the Qur’an misled them. I do not dispute the oneness of God like the Muslims believe God to be and if it could be asked of God by Muslims; ‘did you say the Qura’an’, God I think would reply He did not. It was not Him. That is why they are not the same.

Muslims are children of God no different than me, and though their daily prayers may be made with humble intent to the God of Abraham because of an illigitimate claim of prophethood, the god they serve as slave is a myth. Following the words of allah of the Quran to reach salvation is like letting Ted Bundy give your sister a ride home. Bad move.

I think God is much more compassionate and forgiving than allah of the Qur’an so I won’t be as surprised as they will to see who shares heaven with us.

BTW, thanks for serving.

Substantially, then, we agree. I would say that for it to be a different God, any other religion would have to ascribe something to God that is contrary to his nature. For example, Muslims will not ascribe partners to God. Well, we don’t either. Jesus isn’t separate or a partner–he is God. How that works isn’t something we will understand in this lifetime, but our faith still maintains there is only one God. Where they fall short, mostly, is the understanding of how that God reveals himself to us and how we are to interact with him. I’ve heard the example of memos from the boss–if he sent a memo on Monday, then one on Weds and then a final one on Fri, which would you follow? Well, what of the nature of the memos? If Monday’s memo ended with the phrase “. . . more to come”, then I wouldn’t throw it away, I’d staple it to Weds memo as a more complete understanding of what the boss wanted. However, if the Fri memo contradicted something in the other two, I’d either assume my boss wasn’t perfect and erred previously, or that they’d been sent by somebody else. Maybe that somebody else meant well, but maybe not. The people who follow Friday’s memo still know who the boss is, and follow what they believe he directed for them, however mistakenly. Maybe they believe the Monday and Wednesday memo-followers didn’t get what the memos really meant, but they certainly won’t concede that the latest memo contradicts the prior two.

I’m rambling. It’s been a long, hot week. I do know that God makes good out of evil, so I believe that despite innacurate scripture, he still pulls Muslims to him. In the end, we will all know God, but some won’t want to.