Yet another thread on mortal sin

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dr.Colossus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Dr.Colossus

Guest
I’m not wrestling with my conscience but simply trying to better understand the requirements of mortal sin (so responses like “you know what you did, CONFESS!!” are not exactly what I’m looking for). One necessity for a sin to be mortal is that the one who commits it must know that it is a grave matter.

The Catechism defines grave sin thusly:
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
The first part suggests that any infraction against the 10 Commandments is a grave sin. However, the second part deals with how grave a sin is. If a sin is grave (i.e. sufficient matter to be mortal) how can one grave sin be graver than another? Or does the second part mean that lesser infractions against the Commandments are not grave at all?
 
I think I see your point. If mortal sin lands one in Hell, what is the difference if it was because of murder or theft? I don’t know. I’m sure there have been plenty of academic arguments about that.

Although I don’t see a problem with saying murder is graver than theft in a sense. In theft, you are merely stealing a person’s property. In murder, you are stealing the universe from him.

I don’t know if this will help any, but check out this Examination of Conscience

You will notice it goes through the 10 Commandments in both mortal and venial sins.

Scott
 
Hmmm. Good question. I would say the gravity of the matter is significant even when comparing one mortal sin against another. True they are equal in eternal judgement, but they are not equal in the temporal punishment due the sin.

I do not think the second part necessarily infers that lesser weight items are consequently venial. I think it is describing the big picture, and that personal evaluation is required, incorporating these truths. This information, though perhaps causing more confusion than help for some individuals, may in fact be helpful to the confessor who counsels the sinner.
 
Scott Waddell:
I don’t know if this will help any, but check out this Examination of Conscience

You will notice it goes through the 10 Commandments in both mortal and venial sins.
Actually, this examination is one of the things that prompted my question. In it, “Theft of small or inexpensive items” is listed as a venial sin. But it’s still stealing, not just a related act in the same vein like the others listed. Now, currently I would agree with the examination, that theft of a small, inexpensive item (such as, say a candy bar) might not be grave matter. But how does one square that with the definition listed in the Catechism?
 
Many of the saints & mystics have maintained that there are degrees of hell (e.g. priests who go to hell suffer greatly cos their rejection of God was so much deeper {not sure thats the right word to use}). I think this is based on that whole “to those who have more, more shall be demanded of them”. So it is possible that the gravity of the mortal sin has bearing.

I tend to view it like this. A mortal sin of the lesser gravity is a rejection of God (turning your back on him), whereas a more serious mortal sin is not only turning you back on him it’s running as fast as you can in the other direction. Like the difference between disobeying your parents because you would like to do something they have forbidden and picking the thing to do that you know will most upset them.
 
I would suppose that the value of the actual item is immaterial to its gravity. However, the value of the item to the individual that it was stolen from is intrinsic to its grave nature.

The Catholic Encyclopedia has a good breakdown on the definition of ‘theft’: *The grievousness of theft seems to depend on the way in which the purposes which make the respecting of property rights obligatory are set at naught. These ends are, first the preservation of peace and harmony among individuals, and then the guaranteeing of the security of human society, as well as the providing an incentive for each one to pursue an industrious career. A man who steals may bid defiance to either or both of these ends. So far as the first is concerned it is obvious that the unjust appropriation of goods to such a value as to destroy this concord and furnish reasonable ground for great sorrow to the owner must be reputed a mortal sin. That amount is clearly not a constant quantity. It will vary according to the circumstances of the person injured as well as of place and time in which commodities may be more or less valuable. It will even take account of the special relationship which perchance the thief holds to the one he has despoiled, as when children steal from their parents. The sum so ascertained is termed the relatively grave matter. Thus the theft of an amount equal to a day’s wages from an ordinary artisan would unquestionably be a mortal sin. The same thing must be said of the taking of an insignificant sum from a beggar. Theologians teach that this method of establishing the grievousness of theft cannot be employed indefinitely and exclusively. There is an absolute sum which it is always a mortal sin to take even from the wealthiest person or corporation. Were this not so the very fabric of human society would be imperilled, the stimulus to labour and enterprise extinguished, and the axe laid to the root of that confidence which must accompany human intercourse. *

In the attempt to compute this sum in money theologians are not at one; nor is this surprising. In the settlement of the question we have to reckon with a most important factor, that is with the purchasing power of money which is not the same everywhere nor at all times. Writers on economics tell us that for the last hundred years or so this value has decreased from thirty to forty per cent. Of course, the less the value of money at any given time or in any region the more of it would be required to constitute a mortal sin of theft, always, however, within the limits of the principle already laid down. Comparisons instituted between the United States and Europe in the matter of wages prevailing and cost of living, seem to point unmistakably to the conclusion that money has less purchasing capacity here than abroad. Hence where reputable moralists assign as absolutely grave matter, six dollars for Italy, eight for Belgium, and from seven to ten for England, it will not be deemed excessive to fix the amount for this country as ranging from ten to fifteen dollars. One of the greatest of modern theologians, Palmieri, writing in Europe, professes his willingness to stand sponsor for the opinion which makes the sum twenty dollars. He gives as his reason the greatly lessened value of money in our own time. We may not feel obliged to accept this decision, but it is at any rate an indication of the trend of expert opinion.
 
Dr. Colossus:
Actually, this examination is one of the things that prompted my question. In it, “Theft of small or inexpensive items” is listed as a venial sin. But it’s still stealing, not just a related act in the same vein like the others listed. Now, currently I would agree with the examination, that theft of a small, inexpensive item (such as, say a candy bar) might not be grave matter. But how does one square that with the definition listed in the Catechism?
I think it would hinge on why the bar was stolen - ‘full knowledge’ & ‘complete consent’. A teenage who stole 'cos of peer pressure/everyone does it/not wrong would only sin venially - neither full knowledge nor complete consent
Someone who was straving & stole - you could say not complete consent cos of the outside force ‘starvation’
Someone who knew stealing was wrong & stole just for the ‘thrill’ would probably commit a mortal sin
 
I would suppose that the value of the actual item is immaterial to its gravity. However, the value of the item to the individual that it was stolen from is intrinsic to its grave nature.
This makes sense. But I would assume in a case like that, the value to the individual would have to be known to the theif before it would be a mortal sin.
I think it would hinge on why the bar was stolen - ‘full knowledge’ & ‘complete consent’. A teenage who stole 'cos of peer pressure/everyone does it/not wrong would only sin venially - neither full knowledge nor complete consent
Someone who was straving & stole - you could say not complete consent cos of the outside force ‘starvation’
Someone who knew stealing was wrong & stole just for the ‘thrill’ would probably commit a mortal sin
This brings up another interesting question. What would the result of rationalization be on the gravity of sin? Let’s say for the sake of argument that a person works for a large corporation. He’s discovered a way to steal $100 that will never be missed. He rationalizes that the loss would be spread out over the entire corporation and thus wouldn’t hurt anyone in any serious way.

Obviously this rationalization is flawed, but what would it do to the requirement that the person know their act is grave matter? Would such an act, even though it be stealing in a large amount, still only be a venial sin since the person has convinced himself that it’s not mortal? Or would it still be a mortal sin, compounded with the venial sin of going against one’s conscience?
 
Dr. Colossus:
Obviously this rationalization is flawed, but what would it do to the requirement that the person know their act is grave matter? Would such an act, even though it be stealing in a large amount, still only be a venial sin since the person has convinced himself that it’s not mortal? Or would it still be a mortal sin, compounded with the venial sin of going against one’s conscience?
There is some expression (I can’t remember it now) which states that while a sin is not mortal due to ignorence - you can’t claim ignorence when you have no reason to not be aware that it is a mortal sin (e.g. murder) I think that would apply to this rationalisation.
 
40.png
Ter:
There is some expression (I can’t remember it now) which states that while a sin is not mortal due to ignorence - you can’t claim ignorence when you have no reason to not be aware that it is a mortal sin (e.g. murder) I think that would apply to this rationalisation.
The Catechism states that feigned ignorance compounds sin rather than lessens it. However, it would seem that rationalization is different. In such a case as I wrote earlier, the person in question has sufficiently confused their conscience to such a degree that they are not sure whether it’s grave matter or not anymore. The confusion is real enough. Does this equate to ignorance?
 
But it’s a wilful/false confusion. They know it’s wrong & have decided to do it so are now trying to give themselves reasons that it might be alright. But the rational comes after deciding to do it, if they hadn’t decided to do it they wouldn’t need to rationalise that if was all right.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top