Young Earth Creationists vs Old Earth Creationists

[Frankie65]

Hi GiftofMercy I’m glad we are getting on

It is a Catholic site for study of creation.

They came to our church some years ago.

I went to their lecture thinking, what a bunch of crocks

I came out blown away. It was the bats that did it.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Thanks Frankie, I will look at it later. I must do some study now , I have an exam for Biblical Hebrew in a few weeks.

I will say I believe God created everything, including evolution. and have always wondered at the polarity of its either/or.

 

[TK421]

This is absolutely false and it is difficult to understate how false it is.

God’s love for us didn’t begin on the cross or even at the beginning of the universe. It goes from eternity to eternity. So, seeing any part of history or any aspect of the natural world as irrelevant or a question not worth exploring is a deficiency in our appreciation for God. The Incarnation and the Passion are of course pinnacle episodes of God’s humility and love, but He permeates everything and everywhere and every time.

There are several sources of beauty from which we draw an increased love for God and for creation (and when properly ordered, to love creation is to love God and to love God is to love creation, because you cannot fully isolate an artist from his workmanship) This includes the natural sciences, the social sciences, art, music, drama, literary works, and of course prayer and sacraments, which are the ultimate intimacy between a person and God.

Your philosophy is stemming from the fundamentalist Christian philosophy that to know less and to contemplate less is to be more holy and more pure, but this is not so. It is true that simplicity is a virtue, but it is simplicity of intention which is virtuous. That is: to approach God with the simplicity of a child that trusts wholeheartedly in their Father, even if they loss everything and everybody abandons them. It is not a simplicity in terms of a lack of any appreciation for exploration or discovery. The Church is rich in saints who were deeply inquisitive along with many of the Jewish heroes of the Old Testament. They were often criticized and persecuted by their contemporaries by asking questions that were deemed useless, but they persevered.

A scientist has a noble vocation and he or she gives glory to God.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

When Jesus was asked about marriage, He quoted Genesis Ch.1 stating “from the beginning God made them male & female.” This is the same Greek word used in the Septuagint in Genesis 1:1 “in the beginning God created the Heavens & the earth,” which was at the beginning of the six day creation week when God created Adam & Eve. If you add up the genealogies from Genesis to the NT, you get around 6,000 years (give or take a few hundred years or so). So, there is not “gap” of billions of years between Genesis 1:1 & the rest of Creation week.

 

[GiftofMercy]

@Hope1960 I have just heard something that could help you. Pray the Rosary daily and Our Lady will pull us out of heresy if we fall into teachings that are heretical.

Do you pray the Rosary? It is good advice I think. Especially with all the controversy going on with the Amazon Synod and other newer teachings of the Church.

 

[Frankie65]

This is absolutely false and it is difficult to understate how false it is.

Hi TK421
I’m not sure but I wonder if you may have misread (name removed by moderator)? He seems to be talking about the negatives ie if you can’t love God because you don’t agree or believe something that no- one can really prove anyway then that is a problem. I don’t see anything in what he has written that is false teaching

 

[whatistrue]

There is a problem with the concept ’ God created to look old’

That’s a different thing than “created in the state it would have been had it developed under this set of rules over that period of time”. Basically a shortcut rather than a trick. How would you feel about that situation?

ETA: Not that I necessarily think that is how it happened, but the idea is intriguing to me.

 

[TK421]

TK421:

This is absolutely false and it is difficult to understate how false it is.

Hi TK421
I’m not sure but I wonder if you may have misread (name removed by moderator)? He seems to be talking about the negatives ie if you can’t love God because you don’t agree or believe something that no- one can really prove anyway then that is a problem. I don’t see anything in what he has written that is false teaching

It’s not a “false teaching” (the Church has no interest in making dogmatic statements about secular subjects).

What he is saying is false: that questions about the universe don’t matter. Sure they matter. The human race was meant to discover this stuff. Scientists, artists, merchants, laborers, etc., all have the capacity to glorify God in their work.

 

[Hope1960]

When Jesus was asked about marriage, He quoted Genesis Ch.1 stating “from the beginning God made them male & female.” This is the same Greek word used in the Septuagint in Genesis 1:1 “in the beginning God created the Heavens & the earth,” which was at the beginning of the six day creation week when God created Adam & Eve

What about those few people who were born with both male and female genitalia? I’ve always wondered about that.

 

[Hope1960]

I used to pray it but it just feels like rote, repetitive prayer to me. I do still have a rosary hanging from my rear view mirror, though.

 

[Frankie65]

What he is saying is false: that questions about the universe don’t matter. Sure they matter. The human race was meant to discover this stuff. Scientists, artists, merchants, laborers, etc., all have the capacity to glorify God in their work.

I didn’t take that interpretation from what he said

 

[tafan2]

Why would God have done so? God is outside if time. So He had no need to do so, not any reason to do so. 6 billion years is not a long time for God. And besides, a reading of the six days makes it clear that at least during those six days it was not in a state that it would have been under the rules of the universe (eg plants without the sun).

It was suggested earlier in this thread, not by you, that it is a lack of faith to think God could not have created everything in 6 days. I have no problem accepting that God could have done so. But He created a universe that we can understand, to a great extent at least. He wants us to understand this universe. So why put a “false history” in it.

I think that people who are stuck on six days of creation, and a corresponding young earth, are those who may lack faith. They do not perceive God’s eternity, that He did not have to wait 6 billion years to creat Adam and Eve.

I prefer St Augustine’s idea. The days are not our days, but the mark the points in which God reveled various parts of his creation to the angels. They are in effect points in the angels’ aeviternity.

 

[GiftofMercy]

I used to pray it but it just feels like rote, repetitive prayer to me. I do still have a rosary hanging from my rear view mirror, though.

Try it for a while and ask for avoiding heresies It might make things a little clearer. Our Lady is Our Lady and the Mother of God regardless of religion

 

[RaisedCatholic]

What about those few people who were born with both male and female genitalia? I’ve always wondered about that.

Good question! What they have is a genetic mutation. But even they are still externally more “male” or “female,” rather than “non-binary” (which there is no such thing) because their genetics (sex chromosomes) determine their gender. Even those who have genetic sex-chromosome abnormalities, where they have an extra X or Y chromosome (such as Klinefelter Syndrome) are still male if they possess at least one Y-sex chromosome & female even if they have three X-sex chromosomes. However, they often are not able to reproduce. But even they are either male or female. Their mutations are the result of the Fall.

 

[whatistrue]

Why would God have done so?

As I stated, I don’t necessarily believe that is how He did it, but the idea is intriguing to me (not necessarily to others). As to why God would do this or any other thing that we don’t understand, all I can say is that we cannot know the mind of God; His ways are not our ways.

 

[tafan2]

I agree we don’t know the mind of God. My point is, God created a universe which has a history of billions of years. This we know from science. For example, unless we think that many stars and galaxies are much closer to us than the are, many of them we would no be able to see if the young earth theory is correct.
Now, the question you pose is equivalent to : Why would God wait billions of years, why not just create the universe with that history “built-in”. Sure He could have done so. But why, it assumes God had to “wait”. God never waits, He is eternal, all of history is always present to Him. From God’s standpoint, creating the universe a billion years ago, or yesterday with a billion years of history included, is pretty much the same thing.

 

[whatistrue]

You are speaking as if you are trying to convince me of something that I never said I disagreed with.